News Baltimore riots after Freddie Gray funeral

[Astronuc]

Riots erupted in Baltimore Monday afternoon, hours after thousands mourned Freddie Gray — the man who died earlier this month while in police custody — at a funeral where his family and other community leaders called for peace.

Television footage showed rioters setting police cars on fire, looting stores and throwing rocks at officers. At least 15 police officers were hurt, officials said, and several arrests were made.

Riots in Baltimore raise questions about police response
http://news.yahoo.com/riots-baltimore-raise-questions-police-response-072648181.html

Social media captures fiery images of Baltimore riots
http://news.yahoo.com/social-media-reaction-to-baltimore-unrest-221502252.html

Anger and protesting are justified, but rioting and looting is not. Arson and destruction of property won't resurrect Freddie Gray, won't bring justice; they are counterproductive.Hey Baltimore, What's Going On?!

 

[Czcibor]

Riots in Baltimore raise questions about police response
http://news.yahoo.com/riots-baltimore-raise-questions-police-response-072648181.html

Social media captures fiery images of Baltimore riots
http://news.yahoo.com/social-media-reaction-to-baltimore-unrest-221502252.html

Anger and protesting are justified, but rioting and looting is not. Arson and destruction of property won't resurrect Freddie Gray, won't bring justice; they are counterproductive.Hey Baltimore, What's Going On?!

Counterproductive? Why are you assuming that there is some far reaching aim beyond pleasure of "arson and destruction of property"? (except maybe not mentioned pleasure from brawl and looting)

 

[WWGD]

Maybe rioters believe they have exhausted the official channels, that working within the system does not change things.

 

[Czcibor]

Maybe rioters believe they have exhausted the official channels, that working within the system does not change things.

Hard to say. Any evidence that any of actual rioters tried official channels?

Or if we're playing white guilt, I've got a better suggestion - it's just their tribal warfare tradition towards which we're insensitive? :D
(actually I have such [edit: tribal warfare tradition] to much smaller extend among so called football fans and nationalists in my country)

 

[WWGD]

A black male has a 1-in-3 chance of going to prison in his life, there have been incidents of police mistreatment for many years, many incidents of police shootings, all of this has been going on for many years with little improvement; it is not even being addressed when the issue is raised. And there are people who make a living as agitators of this anger.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

There are at least a dozen major issues that contribute to this societal decay. A comprehensive solution is needed, but I am not convinced such a plan can be correctly conceived or implemented.

 

[nsaspook]

Don't think the 'riot' had anything to do with the Freddie Gray protest. Most of the people in the town were horrified by what happened and most didn't like what they saw their children doing.

I've been in protest for wrongs in the 1960's, we didn't throw rocks at the police, loot, steal and burn down property. Those that did were criminals in a riot, period. People like the mom in the video know the difference.

 

[Czcibor]

A black male has a 1-in-3 chance of going to prison in his life, there have been incidents of police mistreatment for many years, many incidents of police shootings, all of this has been going on for many years with little improvement; it is not even being addressed when the issue is raised. And there are people who make a living as agitators of this anger.

Yes, I know the stats. Shall US gov set free some Blacks and instead imprison some Asians to keep racial quota right? ;)

And more seriously - gov has got limited devices here, especially those that can work quickly (yes, in long run some mixture of better education starting at kindergarten with resocialization may work). I mean the victimisation rates show that Blacks are overrepresented as both crime perpetrators and victims. If gov arrests less Blacks, would the remaining ones be really better off?

 

[Czcibor]

Don't think the 'riot' had anything to do with the Freddie Gray protest. Most of the people in the town were horrified by what happened and most didn't like what they saw their children doing.

I've been in protest for wrongs in the 1960's, we didn't throw rocks at the police, loot, steal and burn down property. Those that did were criminals in a riot, period. People like the mom in the video know the difference.

I may point out govs that were overthrown by people protesting in more peaceful manner. (like Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia or Orange Revolution in Ukraine)

 

[mheslep]

... there have been incidents of police mistreatment for many years, many incidents of police shootings, all of this has been going on for many years with little improvement; it is not even being addressed when the issue is raised. ...

I'm skeptical. Would you have a source for the contention that that there's "little improvement" over time or that police abuse is not addressed, as a general issue. Because if its not true, then you're aiding the agitators:

And there are people who make a living as agitators of this anger.

 

[WWGD]

I'm skeptical. Would you have a source for the contention that that there's "little improvement" over time or that police abuse is not addressed, as a general issue. Because if its not true, then you're aiding the agitators:

People react based on_ their perception_ of what is true, not on what is true or not.

EDIT:Still, e.g.:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...k-the-black-white-gap-in-incarceration-rates/

 

[WWGD]

Don't think the 'riot' had anything to do with the Freddie Gray protest. Most of the people in the town were horrified by what happened and most didn't like what they saw their children doing.

I've been in protest for wrongs in the 1960's, we didn't throw rocks at the police, loot, steal and burn down property. Those that did were criminals in a riot, period. People like the mom in the video know the difference.

Those were days of economic expansion, where you could take years off the job market, come back and find a reasonable job, with barely a high school degree. That takes the edge of to a good degree.

 

[mheslep]

People react based on_ their perception_ of what is true, not on what is true or not.

Agreed. Your earlier post was an assertion of fact though.

 

[phinds]

Clearly the demonstrators have allowed their justified anger to overcome what little sense they may have had. Burning down your own neighborhood is not really a smart move. Now if they had gone over to the mayors neighborhood and burned IT down, I could credit them with some intelligence, even while wishing to see them all in jail.

 

[mheslep]

Those were days of economic expansion, ...

and Jim Crow laws, segregated schools, and common, murderous police injustice against minorities from all-white police forces.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Burning down your own neighborhood is not really a smart move.

I'd wager that the youths that took part in the violence are not in the top of their class.

 

[WWGD]

Agreed. Your earlier post was an assertion of fact though.

You're right, I will look for more data; I edited one link in. Still, the 1/3 probability I way too high.

 

[WWGD]

and Jim Crow laws, segregated schools, and commonly murderous police injustice against minorities from all white police forces.

I am stating that the white protesters, which I assume NSA spook to be, who never threw rocks, nor burnt/destroyed property had a nice cushion to fall back on: go protest, spend a few years finding yourself, then go back and make a reasonable living. Of course different story for black protestors. It takes the edge of to good degree to know that after your protests, without the need to go to school and spend $50,000 + in debt, you will likely find a decent job . This is way too rare nowadays, and adds to the general anxiety over race issues.

 

[mheslep]

I am stating that the white protesters, ...

People have had suffered much worse and found away to protest without burning things down and inflicting grievous injury.

The riots in Baltimore particularly incense me. They're due ostensibly to the police paddy-wagon roundabout road trip caused death of Gray, which is tragic and if found malicious should have criminal consequences. I had a close friend, female, white, who was subject to similar treatment some many years ago by Washington DC police officers who picked her and another woman up outside a party for some minor or bogus infringement and hauled them at speed violently around in the back of a paddy wagon, apparently not an uncommon tool of the cops. The ride beat both women up good with bruises and cuts. The incident was infuriating though nobody died. Nor in response did anyone start burning up police cars and buildings or putting cops in the hospital, nor did they for the several hundred non-black US residents killed by police (reported) in a given year or the http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2014/11/28/17/41/WEB113014-ohio-ferguson-killed-5g_1.jpg in a given year.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

People have had suffered much worse and found away to protest without burning things down and inflicting grievous injury.

Different times, different people. The black family was better put together back then. Now it's a total disaster.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I live in the second most segregated city in the US. I volunteer in the inner city every week. My wife works at an inner city school. The stories we could tell. It's heartbreaking and scary. It's a real crisis with dozens of causes.

 

[nsaspook]

I am stating that the white protesters, which I assume NSA spook to be, who never threw rocks, nor burnt/destroyed property had a nice cushion to fall back on: go protest, spend a few years finding yourself, then go back and make a reasonable living. Of course different story for black protestors. It takes the edge of to good degree to know that after your protests, without the need to go to school and spend $50,000 + in debt, you will likely find a decent job . This is way too rare nowadays, and adds to the general anxiety over race issues.

You would be wrong in your assumption. I was born poor, and 'negro' in cotton country Texas in the 1950's. The people there have every right to protest but they have zero right to commit criminal acts of arson and mayhem while behaving like hooligans.

 

[thankz]

I don't know about you but I feel bad, really I do

 

[WWGD]

You would be wrong in your assumption. I was born poor, and 'negro' in cotton country Texas in the 1950's. The people there have every right to protest but they have zero right to commit criminal acts of arson and mayhem while behaving like hooligans.

My bad, I was wrong, sorry.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The black family was better put together back then. Now it's a total disaster.

It's amazing to think that the Great Society managed to do what Jim Crow couldn't.

 

[WWGD]

It's amazing to think that the Great Society managed to do what Jim Crow couldn't.

Who says this is a result of the Great Society?

 

[mheslep]

Walter Williams, George Mason Econ Professor

The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldn't do, what Jim Crow couldn't do, what the harshest racism couldn't do. And that is to destroy the black family.

Thomas Sowell, Econ Professor, author

The black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and discrimination, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state that subsidized unwed pregnancy and changed welfare from an emergency rescue to a way of life.

 

[WWGD]

Walter Williams, George Mason Econ Professor
Thomas Sowell, Econ Professor, author

If the ultra-hard right says so, I guess. Maybe I could counter with an article by Chomsky, would you buy it? Give me something from, e.g., The Aspen Institute.

 

[Vanadium 50]

And Hitler was a vegetarian. That makes vegetarianism wrong.

You can complain post hoc ergo propter hoc (on many issues, not just this one), but "I'm a leftie and these guys are righties, so therefore they are wrong" is intellectually bankrupt. As for Noam, I know Noam. He is wrong about a great many things, and when he is passionate about an issue he argues badly. But he's not wrong about everything, and yes, if he presented a clear and convincing argument, I would take it seriously.

It is a fact that poverty rates are higher in single mother families - irrespective of race. It is also true that single motherhood rates soared in the 60's, at the time the government policy was to subsidize such behavior. Now, you can argue this wasn't causal, and one cannot prove otherwise, as there is no control group. But it sure looks causal, and it also looks a lot better than the alternative theory that poverty rates were blowing up anyway and the Great Society came along just in time to prevent this from blowing up even faster than it actually did.

 

[WWGD]

That is not the argument I am making; so much for your false assumptions. I go by probabilities, which I think is the best that one can do: the highest likelihood of finding a reasonable explanation is by looking at the center. I don't have time to suffer the fools at neither MSNBC nor FOX, nor at the editorial pages of WSJ or the NYT and try to somehow average their biases. And I don't have time to examine every single view on its own terms. So I go by what my experience tells me: the center is more likely to get it right than the far left or the far right.

 

[russ_watters]

If the ultra-hard right says so, I guess. Maybe I could counter with an article by Chomsky, would you buy it?

It would help if he got himself a degree in economics or political science* --- or even if he wrote in a less crazy-sounding/more intellectual tone. A lot of his writing is really bad, stylistically. Did you read either of the cited articles? They were even-toned and fact-based. Perhaps there are alternative explanations for the phenomena - and I'd be interested to hear/read them - but the case made was pretty strong/logical.

More specifically about the current issue, one thing not discussed previously in the thread is the role of the media and politicians in stirring-up the unrest (though "instigators" was mentioned). The Ferguson coverage, in particular, was a disgrace. Now the "protesters" have a powerful sign and slogan and those that helped create it care very little that it's a flat-out lie. I can't be certain Baltimore's mayor was influenced by the media blaming the police for the rioting in Ferguson, but she made a conscious decision to hold her police back, a dangerously wrong decision:

“I made it very clear that I work with the police and instructed them to do everything that they could to make sure that the protesters were able to exercise their right to free speech,” Rawlings-Blake said. “It’s a very delicate balancing act. Because while we try to make sure that they were protected from the cars and other things that were going on, we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well. And we worked very hard to keep that balance and to put ourselves in the best position to de-escalate.”

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/...those-who-wished-to-destroy-space-to-do-that/

That was on Saturday and it has gotten much worse since then.

*That said, professions/major attract people who are passionate about those things. So often political scientists are the most biased - in either direction - about politics. I had a prof in "Public Opinion and Propaganda" who just couldn't help himself derailing entire lectures on tangents to preach his views. He once spent an entire class bragging and arguing about how he succeeded in getting the college to de-Christmas.

 

[russ_watters]

It is a fact that poverty rates are higher in single mother families - irrespective of race.

I think it is an important point that that isn't strictly a race issue. It just looks like a race issue because blacks make-up a larger than proportional fraction of the poor. Still, the narrative is an easier sell as a race issue because if someone asks "why can't I make my own way in the world?", there isn't as convenient/popular of an answer to provide to those of other races.

 

[WWGD]

The really depressing thing is watching CSPAN's book TV. We finally get exposure to many different sides of many issues. Good part ends there; most presentations just preach to their respective choirs; it would be nice to have the views presented to a non-friendly, if not hostile crowd, to force those who hold
a view to tighten it up. Cowards on both side insult those who disagree with them and engage in red herrings, but rarely, if ever to their faces. I have emailed many authors to call attention to this, but only received an answer once.
I ultimately don't have much time to read outside of my school/work, so my best bet is to look for sources I believe are less likely to be biased.

 

[russ_watters]

...so my best bet is to look for sources I believe are less likely to be biased.

I prefer to choose sources with known biases on opposite sides and/or evaluate biases in what I see. The danger in trying to choose unbiased sources is you can fool yourself into thinking your sources are unbiased when they are not and be less on-guard to see through them. The reality is that no one is bias free and some of the biggest danger of deception comes from the softer-toned biases because they are harder to recognize and therefor combat.

Either way, it is bad form to request a source and then hand-wave it away without even reading it (maybe if it was Rush Limbaugh, but it wasn't). If you posted a Chomsky article on the topic, I would at least read it and tell you why I thought it was wrong.

 

[nsaspook]

My bad, I was wrong, sorry.

No sweat. There were groups in the movement that believed violence should be be met with violence and were given time to rant, they have all fallen into the ash heap of history by the hard working people who worked inside the system to change it. I personally think there is no doubt that police violence involves race and it needs to be protested against and stopped but when it comes to anarchy the decision is easy for me to say, they can go the hell, we don't need them.

 

[WWGD]

Well, I am reading excerpts from Sowell's article,
and there are the usual statements like Mr. Williams says that "if there is anything good to be said about the Democratic White House and the [previous] Congress and their brazen attempt to take over the economy and control our lives, it's that the tea party movement has come out of it. But we have gone so far from the basic constitutional principles that made us a great country that it's a question of whether we can get back."

I keep hearing statements like these, but I just don't know what they mean: brazen attempt to take over the economy? Control our lives? We have gone away from basic constitutional principles? These are apparent axioms, assumed but ( in my experience) never explained. It just takes too much time to try to figure out what statements of this sort mean. Maybe the problem is the two sides have stopped talking to each other so neither side is up to par on what the other is thinking. Just like trying to understand what your friend is up to 20 years since you last saw him, never communicating with him/her interim.

Then "We need a constitutional amendment that limits the amount of money the government can spend". Why? IMHO, government is just one institution in a system of checks and balances. There is the market, the church, the family, the military, etc. These are supposed to keep each other in line, preventing anyone institution from gaining too much power. Why do I hear the constant demonizing of the government alone when I read something from the right? And these far out (false) statements about the government never doing barely anything at all right ( winning WW2, sending a man to the moon ,the civil rights movement, laying the groundwork for the internet )

Or: Still, he's concerned about " how far the country has strayed from the type of limited government envisioned by the Founding Fathers" . Not all founding fathers agreed on this perspective.

Ad then there is he fact that Sowell never replied to comments disagreeing with him.

There are just too many assumptions I don't share that are never explained.

 

[WWGD]

I prefer to choose sources with known biases on opposite sides and/or evaluate biases in what I see. The danger in trying to choose unbiased sources is you can fool yourself into thinking your sources are unbiased when they are not and be less on-guard to see through them. The reality is that no one is bias free and some of the biggest danger of deception comes from the softer-toned biases because they are harder to recognize and therefor combat.

Either way, it is bad form to request a source and then hand-wave it away without even reading it (maybe if it was Rush Limbaugh, but it wasn't). If you posted a Chomsky article on the topic, I would at least read it and tell you why I thought it was wrong.

Well, I laid it out as clearly as I could the reasons for why I have trouble reading this article in my prevous post.

 

[Astronuc]

'The Wire' creator David Simon denounces Baltimore riots
http://news.yahoo.com/david-simon-the-wire-baltimore-riots-125848171.html

 

[russ_watters]

Well, I laid it out as clearly as I could the reasons for why I have trouble reading this article in my prevous post.

I replied to your previous post before you posted your critique. In the previous post (and the one before that), you gave several reasons implying that/why you wouldn't read them.

Anyway, while your objections are semi-valid for what they were addressing, you weren't addressing the issue the articles were posted to discuss. I say "semi-valid" because while the Sowell article was written by Sowell, the Willams article was written by a third party about (and quoting) Williams. And the things you were objecting to were not said by Williams. Regardless, whether it is a good or bad theory, it appears most agree that the cultural problem is real: so I'd like to hear a plausible alternate theory on its cause.

 

[WWGD]

I replied to your previous post before you posted your critique. In the previous post (and the one before that), you gave several reasons implying that/why you wouldn't read them.

Anyway, while your objections are semi-valid for what they were addressing, you weren't addressing the issue the articles were posted to discuss. I say "semi-valid" because while the Sowell article was written by Sowell, the Willams article was written by a third party about (and quoting) Williams. And the things you were objecting to were not said by Williams. Regardless, whether it is a good or bad theory, it appears most agree that the cultural problem is real: so I'd like to hear a plausible alternate theory on its cause.

OK, I will read it more carefully. But I am done with the WSJ's editorial page. For one thing, Sowell's article neither cites sources nor "metrics" for his claims.

 

[nsaspook]

'The Wire' creator David Simon denounces Baltimore riots
http://news.yahoo.com/david-simon-the-wire-baltimore-riots-125848171.html

Yahoo was down: http://davidsimon.com/baltimore/

 

[russ_watters]

For one thing, Sowell's article neither cites sources nor "metrics" for his claims.

Are there any contested claims? Again, it is my understanding that people agree on the basic facts. The disagreement is over the logic connecting them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Interesting commentary from "The Wire" producer
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

 

[russ_watters]

Two new accounts of what happened to Freddie Gray question the narrative that has fueled protests in Baltimore -- the notion that Gray died as a result of police brutality.

The first comes from a woman close to one of the officers involved in the arrest. She told CNN the officer thinks Gray was injured while he was being arrested -- before he was put inside a police van.

The second is an account published in the Washington Post in which a prisoner who was in the van told investigators he thought Gray "was intentionally trying to injure himself."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/index.html

Wow.

 

[Bandersnatch]

"was intentionally trying to injure himself."

Seriously? A guy whou couldn't see Gray and who was put into the wagon after Gray called for medical help says the man severed his own spine because he heard banging against the wall?

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

I don't think these protests are about police violence so much as they are about an accumulation of issues the US is facing. In addition to police abuse of power we have, poor job prospects, education is increasingly for the rich only, higher costs of living coupled with no increase in wages for the middle and lower class since the 1970's, family bonds are not a strong even as early as 25 years ago, we are becoming increasingly medicated, and our mental health sector (well, healthcare in general) is going to hell.

The way I see it, many of these people don't think they have anything to lose. And while I don't think it is a smart idea to destroy innocent peoples property, they are at least standing up for what they think isn't right. That is more than I can say for 99% of the people I know who are "cultured", "refined", "civilized" and "educated". We are becoming increasingly more wimpy and those in power are simply taking advantage. I really hope these protests lead to reform in this country.

I found a good Time article yesterday, but forgot the title.

 

[russ_watters]

Seriously? A guy whou couldn't see Gray and who was put into the wagon after Gray called for medical help says the man severed his own spine because he heard banging against the wall?

Well, no, not necessarily. The prisoner didn't say that, the lawyer did. Obviously, the prisoner couldn't know what, if any, injuries the banging (if any)would cause. The two reports are not mutually exclusive.

Regardless of what the truth is ultimately determined to be, the common thread in recent cases isn't police brutality, but a rush to judgement in the face of not enough information, and the assumption of a conspiracy to protect a bad cop. In Ferguson, the rush to judge and conspiracy belief caused rioting based on a lie. In South Carolina, there was no rioting because the evidence was clear and the cop was immediately arrested and charged.

People shouldn't get angry until they know there is something to be angry about.

The truly sick irony here is that rioting is more likely when there isn't police brutality (or a coverup or good evidence for either) than when there is.

 

[Rick21383]

Seriously? A guy whou couldn't see Gray and who was put into the wagon after Gray called for medical help says the man severed his own spine because he heard banging against the wall?

Did you even read the passage?

Nowhere does it say or imply that the other prisoner claims he "severed his own spine".

"a prisoner who was in the same police van as Gray said he could hear Gray "banging against the walls" of the van and thought Gray "was intentionally trying to injure himself."

The prisoner was separated from Gray by a metal barrier and could not see him, police have said."

Obviously, there are probably multiple variables that contributed to his death but nothing in that passage is difficult to believe or would require the other prisoner to actually see him. He HEARD him thrashing around and thought it sounded like he was trying to injure himself.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

People shouldn't get angry until they know there is something to be angry about.

Some of the recent police homicides were decided by grand jury so no one has the information they need to get angry. That kind of secrecy angers me too.

 

[nsaspook]

Some of the recent police homicides were decided by grand jury so no one has the information they need to get angry. That kind of secrecy angers me too.

It's a necessary 'evil'. I'd rather have witnesses testify and the deciders decide without being intimidated to see if it's a case that can be tried in open court. The 'people' sit on those grand juries so it's not a star chamber and at least in theory protects both sides from overzealous prosecutions.