Bernoulli's principal and law of conservation of energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Bernoulli's principle and the law of conservation of energy as they apply to the flow of an ideal fluid in a pipe with varying diameter. Participants explore the relationship between pressure, kinetic energy, and flow energy, questioning how energy is conserved and transferred in such a system.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that as an ideal fluid flows from a wider to a narrower section of a pipe, there is an increase in kinetic energy, raising questions about the source of this energy given that ideal fluids cannot store energy through pressure.
  • One participant suggests that the mass density of the fluid might differ between sections, assuming constant kinetic energy, which introduces uncertainty about the fluid's behavior.
  • Another participant discusses the concept of flow energy, proposing that pressure acts on a fluid element to do work, which is necessary for the increase in kinetic energy as per the conservation of energy.
  • Some participants reference external sources, such as NASA's historical documents, to support their claims about dynamic pressure and energy conservation in ideal fluids.
  • There are challenges to the idea that energy cannot be stored through pressure in an ideal fluid, with some participants questioning the validity of this assumption.
  • One participant emphasizes that the total pressure and energy in Bernoulli's equation remain constant for horizontal flow, suggesting that no external work is done in the system.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of zero viscosity in classic examples of Bernoulli's principle, noting that adjacent streamlines may flow at different rates without interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the role of pressure in energy transfer and the behavior of ideal fluids. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the source of kinetic energy increase or the implications of pressure in ideal fluid dynamics.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in their understanding of fluid dynamics and the assumptions underlying their arguments, indicating a need for further exploration of the concepts discussed.

  • #61
Ok, just for simplicity morph the original question by a bit, with only 1 image -

attachment.php?attachmentid=22350&d=1260242514.png


And assume that we have another piston towards the narrower cross section just to not allow the fluid to 'spill', i.e ensure that the whole cross section is filled with the fluid; both the pistons are mass-less.

If, initially the piston towards the LHS applies a force so as to make the fluid gain a momentum, then, after a while, the force application stops, but the pistons keeps pace with the fluid to avoid it's spilling...ensuring that the fluid fills the cross section.

Assuming the length of the narrow cross section is long enough, will all the fluid in the wider cross section move into the narrow cross section without application of any additional force?...i.e solely by virtue of the momentum gained by the fluid?
 
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  • #62
I really have no idea what you are trying to describe with that first diagram. For the second diagram, the system will accelerate and quickly reach an equilibrium with steady flow, based on the applied pressure equalling the total pressure required to move the fluid at a certain velocity through the small pipe.


Ok...by this I conclude, it might happen that all the fluid (referring to the above description) will not move to narrower cross section.
 
  • #63
For a practical application of fluid models go to this link:

http://dynast.net/course/index.html

Course parts for printing:

Modeling and Simulation (This is a link to a 140 page modelsim.pdf. Chapter 5 covers fluid models. The paper itself is an introduction to multidomain system models).
 
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  • #64
dE_logics said:
And assume that we have another piston towards the narrower cross section just to not allow the fluid to 'spill', i.e ensure that the whole cross section is filled with the fluid; both the pistons are mass-less.
First, could you tell me whether we are talking about air or water?

Next, massless or not, the second piston has to be applying a force (there is a pressure due to the presence of the fluid), so you need to be more specific about what you want it to do. How much force, exactly does the second piston apply? A force equal to "F"? Something lower than "F"? It makes a difference.
If, initially the piston towards the LHS applies a force so as to make the fluid gain a momentum, then, after a while, the force application stops, but the pistons keeps pace with the fluid to avoid it's spilling...ensuring that the fluid fills the cross section.
The piston cannot "keep pace" without applying a force. The fluid is under pressure!
Assuming the length of the narrow cross section is long enough, will all the fluid in the wider cross section move into the narrow cross section without application of any additional force?...i.e solely by virtue of the momentum gained by the fluid?
Though your scenario is still being described in an incomplete and contradictory way, I can see is no reason to believe the fluid would completely move through the narrower tube. I can't think of any variant of your problem description where it would.

Do you have a specific real-world scenario that you are trying to understand or is this completely hypothetical?
 
  • #65
SystemTheory said:
For a practical application of fluid models go to this link:

http://dynast.net/course/index.html

Course parts for printing:

Modeling and Simulation (This is a link to a 140 page modelsim.pdf. Chapter 5 covers fluid models. The paper itself is an introduction to multidomain system models).

It's a guide to a software which's proprietary and works only on windaz.
 
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  • #66
First, could you tell me whether we are talking about air or water?

Water.

Next, massless or not, the second piston has to be applying a force

The force is applied on the second piston...and the first piston applies the force (initially). The force on the second piston is a consequence.

I think it's impossible to describe this.

So just leave it for now...really appreciated the help.
 

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