BJT Transistor Collector Current

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the collector current in BJT transistors, specifically in the context of circuit simulations and the application of textbook equations. Participants explore the implications of biasing in the Common Emitter (CE) configuration and how it affects the collector current, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why two circuits with the same BJT transistor and variable values yield different collector currents in simulations, despite a textbook equation suggesting otherwise.
  • Another participant suggests that the simulations lack correct biasing of the transistors in the CE configuration, prompting a question about the original poster's familiarity with biasing.
  • A participant emphasizes the necessity of proper biasing for the equations to apply, linking it to the modes of operation of the transistor.
  • There is a discussion about whether the textbook equation is only applicable in the active mode when Vc > Vb > Ve, with some participants affirming this condition.
  • One participant notes that the original simulation screenshots may not have any biasing or may only exhibit parasitic biasing from the base current.
  • Another participant points out that the diagrams in the textbook assume saturation rather than biasing as a CE amplifier, highlighting differences in circuit configurations.
  • Participants discuss the need for an additional voltage source to ensure proper biasing in the circuit with a collector resistance, emphasizing the importance of voltage levels for accurate simulation results.
  • Links to external resources are shared for further learning about biasing and collector curves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the importance of proper biasing for the applicability of the equations, but there are multiple competing views regarding the specifics of biasing and its effects on the collector current in simulations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact conditions under which the textbook equation applies.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential missing assumptions about biasing conditions, dependence on definitions of modes of operation, and unresolved details regarding the setup of the simulations.

FAS1998
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I’ve attached an image below of a section from my textbook and some circuit simulations. The textbook gives an equation for the collector current in a bjt transistor. The simulation shows two circuits (with the same bjt transistor) that have equal values for all variables present in the textbook equation. Shouldn’t the two circuits be producing the same collector current? Why are thy different in the simulation?
 

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It looks like there is a lot missing from your simulations. Correct biasing of the transistors in the Common Emitter (CE) configuration, for one.

Are you familiar with how to bias an NPN BJT in the CE configuration?
 
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berkeman said:
It looks like there is a lot missing from your simulations. Correct biasing of the transistors in the Common Emitter (CE) configuration, for one.

Are you familiar with how to bias an NPN BJT in the CE configuration?
No, I’m not quite sure what that means. I’m just beginning to learn how bjt transistors work and assumed that the textbook equation generally described how the collector current is related to the voltage between the base and emitter. Why is the equation not applicable in this context?
 
Because the junctions have to be biased correctly in order for the equations to apply.

Have a look at this Wikipedia page to learn more. Does your textbook talk about biasing a CE amplifier?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_emitter
 
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berkeman said:
Because the junctions have to be biased correctly in order for the equations to apply.

Have a look at this Wikipedia page to learn more. Does your textbook talk about biasing a CE amplifier?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_emitter
I’m not sure. Is this related to modes of operation? Does this equation maybe only work in the active mode when Vc > Vb > Ve? Most of the material preceding the equation is about modes of operation.
 
FAS1998 said:
Does this equation maybe only work in the active mode when Vc > Vb > Ve?

That is the normal biasing for CE operation, so I would say yes. The equations for the other modes of operation (like CB, etc.) are likely similar, though. In your original simulation screenshots there was no biasing at all, or at best parasitic biasing from the base current you were forcing into the base.

Have you been able to set up a better biased simulation based on the Google Images results yet?
 
FAS1998 said:
Shouldn’t the two circuits be producing the same collector current? Why are thy different in the simulation?
The diagrams assume saturation, not bias as a CE amplifier.
The second diagram has a 1k collector load.
 
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FAS1998 said:
Does this equation maybe only work in the active mode when Vc > Vb > Ve? Most of the material preceding the equation is about modes of operation.
Yes - the shown exponential relationship between Ic and Vbe applies only if Vc>Vb.
Therefore, you need an additional voltage source of some volts biasing the collector.
For the second circuit (with a collector resistance), this voltage must be large enough to cope for the voltage drop acrooss this resistor (caused by the expected collector current).

By the way: Who told you to bias the base with a voltage of 1V ? Instead, take 0.6...0.7 V only.
 
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Here is another good source. Look at the collector curves about half way down.
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transistor/tran_2.html
 
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