Bomb blast in Oslo; PM's office building targeted.

[Proton Soup]

I had a thread on the death penalty where guilt was known beyond a shadow of a doubt, and people actually posted that there was no way that there could ever be no doubt. :uhh:

unfortunately, prosecutorial misconduct is a continual problem.

 

[arildno]

Breivik has admitted that the bombing in Oslo was meant as a DIVERSION, in order to draw all available police to that area, in order to maximize the time he would have on his murder spree at Utøya.
Grudgingly, the police concedes that the havoc and chaos in Oslo had the predictable effect of delaying full mobilization to the Utøya situation, possibly with as much as an hour. ABB was able to massacre youths for 90 minutes until he surrendered.

He is only "partially satisfied" by his action, because he was too late at Utøya to execute earlier prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland his main symbolic target, along with as many Labour Youths he could manage.

(He regarded the current prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg as an "unimportant" goal, relative to Gro Harlem Brundtland.)

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Prosecutor Christian Hatlo is considering changing the legal classification to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity" . If [when] Breivik is convicted he risks [gets] 30 [++] years in prison.

http://translate.google.com/transla...kel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=4618022&act=url

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABB_Group" really a good abbreviation for a terrorist... in this part of the world...? :uhh:

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Read some Fukuyama, extrapolate from that, and you'll start to believe the same. He's a right-wing fundamentalist/terrorist who tries to start a civil war by bringing back to life the knights templars; his ideology is pretty common for right-wing.

It's too easy to say that he is insane. It's ideological violence. Same as nazism was, RAF was, KKK racial hangings were, jihadism is, or even -taken to an extreme- an institutionalized version where vietnamese kids ended up being bombed with napalm was.

I say it again, it's too easy to dismiss him as a nutcase since history only shows that ideological violence is the norm, not the exception. I would call ideological violence pretty insane, but I don't close my eyes to that many, many people are inclined to it, practice it, or out-source it to their government.

Well, that’s a pretty dull view on humanity, isn’t it? All Germans in the 30-40's was coldblooded mass-murderers?? Do you really believe this?

I think an absolute majority of the German people was victims of their own history, economy, and a small but very loud gang of psychopath goons that used violence and threats to scare the majority to obey their crazy "ideology".

The Nazis at first thought they could use "Ordinary Army Fritz" to "get rid" of "the problem" by gun down civilians in any close-by ditch. It didn’t work... "Ordinary Fritz" lost his mind after a few experiences of this brutal and surreal madness, and became mentally ill and completely "useless" to the Nazis. And we all know how the Nazis solved "the problem" in the end...

The Big Freak himself had a history of extreme and perverted sexuality, and he was an amphetamine junky, on top of the rest of the madness. Beyond completely nuts, he had a bunch of 'ordinary diseases' (that could probably drive a completely normal man mad); irritable bowel syndrome, skin lesions, irregular heartbeat, Parkinson's disease, syphilis, tinnitus, Asperger syndrome, sinus infection, real bad teeth and gums infection, Monorchism (only one testicle).

And his brutal and drunken father Alois Hitler, gave him all the genes and 'culture' ever needed:

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Alois_Hitler_last_years.jpg

I agree that Behring Breivik is a 'mental mystery'. If it’s true that he planned this terror attack for 9 years, and stayed focused all this time, completely alone – it doesn’t fit the common picture of a psycho madman. But we don’t know exactly what happened yet, and besides – a professor in psychiatry said that this behavior is possible, yet it’s extremely unusual (thank god).

So, what is your source for claiming Behring Breivik perfectly normal??

If you try to imagine the completely horrendous situation out on the island, for a moment, I’m sure you agree that this is not normal human behavior in any sence. It doesn’t matter how far out on any right or left wing you are – this is not something a normal human could carry through, for several hours. It’s just too insane...

Behring Breivik used illegal ammunition, so called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet" , that does horrific things to human bodies when hitting. Behring Breivik was not heavily drugged when committing this awful crime; he did it in cold blood, one by one.

(You also have to remember that he did not have any military experience at all. He was relieved his military service.)

This is not normal by any standards, and I think you understand this as well.

The poor teenagers surviving this tragedy will have a lot of horrendous 'images' to process in the coming years...

Sorry to say, but if right-wing populism continues like it does it Europe at the moment, in forty years from now he may be considered a hero, not a nutcase.

I don’t agree, and frankly it’s almost as nutty as some of the Behring Breivik ideas. Only if you think that this crazy moron has something substantial to say to the world, this will be possible.

We are already hundreds of millions in deep agreement that this is not the case; all he says is crazy mumbo-jumbo.

My personal guess is that all these extremists – whether it’s lunatic Jihadists or mentally ill extreme-right-wings or the "usual dictator" – they all have to fight free information, and to be scrutinized by well informed internet users all over the world. Just look at Egypt and Tunisia...

Do you really think that this guy would have been successful, roaring in the CNN studio??

[URL]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-10460%2C_Adolf_Hitler%2C_Rednerposen.jpg/500px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-10460%2C_Adolf_Hitler%2C_Rednerposen.jpg[/URL]

People would laugh their pants off.

"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything." -- Albert Einstein​

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Did you all hear about Glenn Beck's comments

"There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler Youth, or, whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics. Disturbing."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Glenn+Beck+compares+Norwegian+youth+camp+Hitler+Youth/5160627/story.html

Something like this happens but he finds the camp itself disturbing?!

 

[Willowz]

I don't think he was a Neo-Nazi. He was for the Knights Templar (or something of that sort). I similar theme to the Nazis but not the same.

These are some holy Templar delusions. Probably the most powerful that exist.

 

[Astronuc]

Well, apparently some Republicans send their kids to Young Republican camp.

http://www.christaforster.com/2007/01/young-republican-camp-part-1.html

Meetup has quite a few young republican groups.

 

[turbo]

And Maine has Boy's State and Girl's State at which young people can set up and run mock governments. It's a good exercise in civics. Hardly a Hitler-youth movement. Still, Beck is in it for ratings, so his lack of sensitivity is not surprising.

 

[arildno]

Did you all hear about Glenn Beck's comments


http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Glenn+Beck+compares+Norwegian+youth+camp+Hitler+Youth/5160627/story.html

Something like this happens but he finds the camp itself disturbing?!

The obscenity of Glenn Beck in this regard is quite extra-ordinary, almost at Fred Phelps level (I'm sure that un-American American already has praised ABBs actions as God's punishment for Norwegians commitment to sodomy).

Also, Glenn Beck is wrong.
The tradition of Utøya is, of course, in addition, a lot of fun, singing and making friends.
Making boy&girlfriends is also a major concern and, to Fred Phelps' probable consternation, in ALL varieties.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, apparently some Republicans send their kids to Young Republican camp.

http://www.christaforster.com/2007/01/young-republican-camp-part-1.html

Meetup has quite a few young republican groups.

I'll call your contradiction and raise you a hypocrite

Who would do a political camp for kids? Perhaps, Glenn Beck’s own 9/12 Project?

This month the Tampa 9/12 project held a summer camp for kids called the Tampa Liberty School which was described on their own website as, “This part time summer camp will meet from 9am to noon on July 11-15 at the Paideia School in Temple Terrace. Kids aged 8-12 years old will have fun while learning the principles of liberty, free markets, and limited government. They will also learn the values of personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift.”

http://www.politicususa.com/en/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth

 

[MarcoD]

Well, that’s a pretty dull view on humanity, isn’t it? All Germans in the 30-40's was coldblooded mass-murderers?? Do you really believe this?

I think an absolute majority of the German people was victims of their own history, economy, and a small but very loud gang of psychopath goons that used violence and threats to scare the majority to obey their crazy "ideology".

...

I agree that Behring Breivik is a 'mental mystery'. If it’s true that he planned this terror attack for 9 years, and stayed focused all this time, completely alone – it doesn’t fit the common picture of a psycho madman. But we don’t know exactly what happened yet, and besides – a professor in psychiatry said that this behavior is possible, yet it’s extremely unusual (thank god).

So, what is your source for claiming Behring Breivik perfectly normal??

...

"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything." -- Albert Einstein​

As I said, I find all ideological violence insanity. I am also directly opposed to you portraying facists as nutcases. But people kill other people for ideological reasons, this has always been the case, and unless you strongly oppose that, will always be the case in the future.

To portray national-socialism as insanity, or give weak-genes/eugenetic reasons for claimed insanity of proponents, goes against all historical account; moreover, puts you straight into the camp of nazis since you are using essentially similar lines of reasoning. People, and a majority of scientists, believed strongly at that the start of the twentieth century that races shouldn't mix because they grow 'weaker.' For instance, it would be benificiary to the 'Jews' to extradite them and give them their own state since, as a race, they could only grow weaker in the diaspora situation they were in at that time. In the US, segregation was defended with similar arguments. Believes like that were common, and the view of the German majority, at that point in time.

Fascism is mostly perfectly rational, it is just that we have found the fallacy in the arguments after WWII - which starts with that you just can't abstract over populations as homogenous groups with their own agendas. The latter is exactly the fallacy in Breivik's reasoning, or sometimes in Fukuyama's books, or even in some of the debates on Jihadism, Israel, and the role of the US/EU in that.

My source for claiming Behring Breivik as 'perfectly normal' comes from history. The current affairs is completely comparable to US history during the segregation debates where a lot of politicians were openly for segregation as 'the natural order of things' (in a non-violent manner, of course), but a substantial part of the rest of the population were part of the KKK and hung (teenage) blacks. To claim that they were insane, no, they just believed in the wrong arguments, and they did what humans do: eliminate a perceived threat with murder.

Moreover, I have been skimming some populist right-wing forums to check their response. They also mostly dismiss Breivik as a nutcase or an idiot, but there is also sympathy for his ideas, if not outright support for his actions. A translation of some responses:

"A right cat under left suppression makes strange jumps."
"If we wouldn't have a multicultural society, this would never have happened."
"I don't condone his actions, but I also have no sympathy for left-wing kids."
"He should have bombed mosks, not his own population, but most of his reasoning is right."

And that is my point, the EU Arabic immigrant 'problem' is the same as the US debate on segregation was, only we are moving in the other direction. In some sense, it is the direct result of the rhetoric accompanying the 'War on Terror,' anti-Islam or anti-Arab statements have become 'fashionable' in the EU. If you dismiss Breivik as a nutcase, the right-wing populists will never see that he just does what they preach. And because of that, and because the history of mankind is full with genocides or ideological violence, I will not dismiss him as a nutcase. The right-wing populists have blood on their hands (this is the logical result of their actions), just as we have blood on our hands for sometimes supporting states like Lybia or Israel, or suppressing people in Afghanistan.

If the EU dismisses Breivik as a nutcase, then that is closing your eyes for what is happening, and the EU will end up gassing its muslim population in a few decades.

 

[Evo]

To portray national-socialism as insanity, or give weak-genes/eugenetic reasons for claimed insanity of proponents, goes against all historical account;

Yeah, and hundreds of years ago witches were killed and demonic spirits caused disease.

You cannot compare his train of thought TODAY with what was done or believed in the past. By today's standards, yes, he can be considered insane. One thousand years agao, he'd be a Christian Crusader. Today a person thinking that they are a Knight Templar is insane.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Thanks Evo

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Did you all hear about Glenn Beck's comments

* groooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaan *
I think I have to recapture my statement about Adolf H ... not working in the CNN studio ...

When you thought you’ve heard the most stupid thing that could possible come out of the rotten mouth of a retarded eggplant – it gets even worse?? :grumpy::grumpy::grumpy:

And the 9/12 Project? Can someone sue this guy for slander, pleeeeeeease??

This guy gets it right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bscp0ou3o40

This makes me wonder what the h*ll is going on?? Two out of three CNN "analysts" thinks this is a FUNNY JOKE! Am I missing something?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHzQ9WgEC2I

What would Glenn Beck have said if Europeans made "Hitler Jokes" about 9/11??

 

[AlephZero]

Clearly the specifics of this are beyond rational logic, but the fact that it happened in Norway rather than another European country coukd be described as "bettiing with the odds". Data from today's Financial Times (UK):

European rightwing populist parties' performace in parliamentary elections.
Country, Election date, % of vote, Party name

Norway, 2009, 22.9%. Progress Party
Finland, 2011, 19.1%, True Finns
Austria, 2008, 17.5%, Freedom Party
Hungary, 2010, 16.7%, Jobbik
Netherlands, 2010, 15.5%, Freedom Party
Denmark, 2007, 13.8%, People's Party
Bulgaria, 2009, 9.4%, Attack
Italy, 2008, 8.3%, Northern League
Sweden, 2010, 5.7%, Swedish Democrats
France, 2007, 4.3%, National Front
UK, 2010, 1.9%, British National Party

 

[Willowz]

Why is Glenn Beck commentary videos being posted in this thread?

 

[arildno]

Yes, AlephZero, very clever!

However, do you know that Norway has the highest concentration of mountains as well?

Didn't you know that trolls live up there?

 

[disregardthat]

Clearly the specifics of this are beyond rational logic, but the fact that it happened in Norway rather than another European country coukd be described as "bettiing with the odds". Data from today's Financial Times (UK):

European rightwing populist parties' performace in parliamentary elections.
Country, Election date, % of vote, Party name

Norway, 2009, 22.9%. Progress Party
Finland, 2011, 19.1%, True Finns
Austria, 2008, 17.5%, Freedom Party
Hungary, 2010, 16.7%, Jobbik
Netherlands, 2010, 15.5%, Freedom Party
Denmark, 2007, 13.8%, People's Party
Bulgaria, 2009, 9.4%, Attack
Italy, 2008, 8.3%, Northern League
Sweden, 2010, 5.7%, Swedish Democrats
France, 2007, 4.3%, National Front
UK, 2010, 1.9%, British National Party

You can't possibly believe that these parties are comparable by any measure. Norway's "Progress party" is miles away in political positions (in particular; immigration) to any of the scandinavian examples. There are other more extreme parties (e.g. the Democrats) in Norway that are much more suited on that list, but they on the other hand has miniscule support. My point is that this list gives a false impression of the political stances of the people of Norway in particular if compared to each other.

This is an excerpt from the link:

The Democrats consider the Danish People's Party[25] and the Sweden Democrats[26] to be its sister parties. Kristian Norheim, speaking on behalf of the Progress Party, has also considered that the Democrats is the Norwegian sister party to the Danish People's Party.[27]

which strongly suggests that the Progress Party ought to be replaced by the Democrats, and the percentage by 0.1%.

 

[MarcoD]

Yeah, and hundreds of years ago witches were killed and demonic spirits caused disease.

You cannot compare his train of thought TODAY with what was done or believed in the past. By today's standards, yes, he can be considered insane. One thousand years agao, he'd be a Christian Crusader. Today a person thinking that they are a Knight Templar is insane.

He wants to start a fundamentalist movement derived from old Christian principles and abuses -with little historical knowledge- the Knights Templars image for that. It is just the same as the 'Marters' of Jihadism, or 'Black Panthers,' or 'Grand Wizards' of the KKK, or Roman swastikas on the Hitler Jugend; a name/symbol with some positive connotation to it. Yeah the guy is somewhat delusional, but that's not insane, it's not a badly chosen symbol for that purpose even. He's also a free-mason, he knows the power of symbols and rituals - it is what they study for a part. Symbols and rituals are driving forces behind ideologies, religions, churches and armies. He just copy-cats from other movements and choses his own decoralia.

Would you call the first 'Black Panther' insane? That's too easy.

It is logical that since there is a perceived threat from Islam and muslim marters, that the fundamentalist right of the EU starts an opposing force - a Christian variant of Jihadism. I even predicted that they would chose the symbols of crusaders accompanying a counter-force years ago, and I somewhat expect white youth in the street proudly wearing crusader crosses, or something, in the coming decades.

(Hmm, I guess most of you are kids, right? Guess this is the wrong forum.)

 

[MarcoD]

You can't possibly believe that these parties are comparable by any measure. Norway's "Progress party" is miles away in political positions (in particular; immigration) to any of the scandinavian examples. There are other more extreme parties (e.g. the Democrats) in Norway that are much more suited on that list, but they on the other hand has miniscule support. My point is that this list gives a false impression of the political stances of the people of Norway in particular if compared to each other.

I am from the Netherlands and I have been told that the populist right is smaller in Norway (count your blessings). In the Netherlands, as stated, the support for them is 15%, and I do believe that rightwing fundamentalism must come as a shock to Norway. It must be akin to experiencing racial violence for the first time.

But to describe the rightwing view:

A large part of people voting for them believe that the system is governed by the left, that journalism is made by lefties only, that the rightwing view is not heard or acted upon, that the government sold out on its population by allowing the Arab immigrants to stay in this country, that subsequently democracy doesn't work to protect the public from Islam influences, that Islam is a backward belief of pedophiles and polygamists which is inferior to the western world heritage, that -subsequently- the common public is allowed to break down the system and strongly oppose left -the traitors of the country,- and if necessary, -the believe of a minority- overrule the left suppression by violence.

This is the direct result of 911, the subsequent wars, and the 'War on Terror' rhetoric which lead to the demonization of Arabs combined with the feelings of a minority which just thinks that foreigners should go home, that the system doesn't work for them, and now find that they have every right -since we are at war with Arabs already- to be heard, or even overthrow the government.

Most people are moderate and want to end this through peaceful manners, but -of course- there is a part which thinks they can take justice into their own hands. And Breivik is the logical result of that.

 

[Evo]

He wants to start a fundamentalist movement derived from old Christian principles and abuses -with little historical knowledge- the Knights Templars image for that. It is just the same as the 'Marters' of Jihadism, or 'Black Panthers,' or 'Grand Wizards' of the KKK, or Roman swastikas on the Hitler Jugend; a name/symbol with some positive connotation to it. Yeah the guy is somewhat delusional, but that's not insane, it's not a badly chosen symbol for that purpose even. He's also a free-mason, he knows the power of symbols and rituals - it is what they study for a part. Symbols and rituals are driving forces behind ideologies, religions, churches and armies. He just copy-cats from other movements and choses his own decoralia.

Would you call the first 'Black Panther' insane? That's too easy.

It is logical that since there is a perceived threat from Islam and muslim marters, that the fundamentalist right of the EU starts an opposing force - a Christian variant of Jihadism. I even predicted that they would chose the symbols of crusaders accompanying a counter-force years ago, and I somewhat expect white youth in the street proudly wearing crusader crosses, or something, in the coming decades.

(Hmm, I guess most of you are kids, right? Guess this is the wrong forum.)

You know what? You're kind of scary. You seem to hold the same values as this killer. Maybe that's not true, but you have a few days to think about it and come back with a better argument. I'm tired of deleting your posts.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

And here’s more for you to think about, take your time...

As I said, I find all ideological violence insanity. I am also directly opposed to you portraying facists as nutcases. People kill other people for ideological reasons, this has always been the case, and unless you strongly oppose that, will always be the case in the future.

You make it too easy for yourself. Yes, there have always been wars between humans, tribes, nations and even continents. But to use this to paint some picture of the human being as some form of "killer machine", is to take it too far, unless we are talking cannibalism.

How can I say this? What do I mean?

Well, it’s that simple fact that when you walk outside your house to buy groceries, you don’t expect to get your head cut off by the first human you meet in the street, right?

We don’t like violence, that’s most folk’s basic instinct. Then there’s a whole spectrum of people; from professional militaries to criminal murderers, who 'handle' violence every day. But even the toughest Torpedo’s usually uses some form of drug, to make it 'easier'. And the military gets training to handle tough situations.

I thought this was obvious??

A normal human being has this thing called Empathy. If you see another person being brutally beaten, you get 'emotionally involved', whether you like it or not. The reaction has been measured with MRI in the brain, and some scientist suspect it’s 'hardcoded', by evolution.

Then you have people who are seriously mentally ill, or have brain damages, or have destroyed their normal brain functions thru drugs; who don’t feel anything at all for other humans. For some of the worst in this group; there’s no difference in cutting a carrot or a human into pieces.

I don’t know of any natural law stating that; we will continue to fight wars against each other for all eternity? What’s the name of this law, if I might ask??

As Evo points out, there was a time when we burned witches on open fire. Do you suspect that this is a "basic human behavior" as well? Will it come back? Soon?? Where are the knights??

A lot has changed in the human society and culture in the last 10,000 years, and to make dogmatic statements about the future is just stupid.

To portray national-socialism as insanity, or give weak-genes/eugenetic reasons for claimed insanity of proponents, goes against all historical account; moreover, puts you straight into the camp of nazis since you are using essentially similar lines of reasoning. People, and a majority of scientists, believed strongly at that the start of the twentieth century that races shouldn't mix because they grow 'weaker.' For instance, it would be benificiary to the 'Jews' to give them their own state since, as a race, they could only grow weaker in the diaspora situation they were in at that time. In the US, segregation was defended with similar arguments. Believes like that were common, and the view of the German majority, at that point in time.

What on Earth are you talking about?? Just because I say that Adolf Hitler’s drunken and brutal father was not the typical "Nobel laureate material", you’re calling me a racist?? Is the Hitler family a "race" now?

I can’t take you seriously.

Fascism is mostly perfectly rational, it is just that we have found after WWII the fallacy in the arguments - which starts which that you just can't abstract over populations as homogenous groups with their own agendas. The latter is exactly the fallacy in Breivik's reasoning, or sometimes in Fukuyama's books, or even in some of the debates on Jihadism, Israel, and the role of the US/EU in that.

Fascism is not a natural law; it’s a sad part of human history. One of the basic fundaments of fascism is violence, fear and peer pressure. These 'incitements' have been used by rulers throughout the history of human civilization. Time to learn from previous mistakes...

My source for claiming Behring Breivik as 'perfectly normal' comes from history. The current affairs is completely comparable to US history during the segregation debates where a lot of politicians were openly for segregation as 'the natural order of things' (in a non-violent manner, of course), but a substantial part of the rest of the population were part of the KKK and hung (teenage) blacks. To claim that they were insane, no, they just believed in the wrong arguments, and they did what humans do - eliminate a perceived threat with murder.

KKK is typical example of what I’m talking about. You didn’t see any KKK running around in New York did you? This is a typical fear and peer pressure small-town phenomena. All it takes is one Big Maniac that punches the others in the face, if they don’t follow, and you’re up and running your "fear business".

I can give a more recent example, the Rwandan Genocide. In 100 days 1,000,000 people were slaughtered by machetes. Do you really think that the perpetrators did this "for fun"?? It was something "natural" for them?

The perpetrators had this choice – Either you kill this enemy with machete, or we will hack you into pieces.

The killing was organized by the nutcase government; they imported 500,000 machetes for Hutu use in killing Tutsi. All it takes is a few psychopaths on the top, and no one to stop them.

Moreover, I have been skimming some populist right-wing forums to check their response.

And what did you expect to find, some kind of truth?? Please give me a break.

And that is my point, the EU situation is the same as the US debate on segregation, only we are moving in the other direction. In some sense, it is the direct result of the rhetoric accompanying the 'War or Terror.' If you dismiss Breivik as a nutcase, the right-wing populists will never see that he just does what they preach. And because of that, and because the history of mankind is full with genocides or ideological violence, I will not dismiss him as a nutcase. They have blood on their hands (this is the logical result of their actions), just as we have blood on our hands for sometimes supporting states like Lybia or Israel, or suppressing people in Afghanistan.

If the EU dismisses Breivik as a nutcase, then that is closing your eyes for what is happening, and the EU will end up gassing its muslim population in a few decades.

You must be kidding, right?? Gassing?

Anyhow, it doesn’t really matter much if you and I think Breivik is nutcase or not. What this moron in fact has accomplished (at least in the Nordic countries) is a genuine disgust for anything that comes even close to extreme right-wing populism. They are smoked for years after this.

As I said – everybody hates violence and extreme right-wing populism will forever be connected to Breivik’s terror attack on innocent teenagers on the island, and there’s nothing they can do to change this fact.

 

[MarcoD]

God Evo, no! My own personal political views are non-activist/moderate/left-centrist in the Netherlands, which doesn't translate in a any meaningful manner to US political views. The best approximation would be that I am at the far left of the progressive part of the Democratic party, but since I am a moderate and political issues in the US are different, that description would also be very flawed.

I think the current rightwing populism is a bigot hate speech party which destabilizes our country and has goals which will achieve the opposite of what they want.

I sympathize somewhat with some of the voters for that party since they are mostly afraid that they will end up in a crime-ridden suburb full with Arabs which will try to slice their throats, which is what they see on TV. That's something to be avoided, but the party itself is a dead-end.

Fascism is not a natural law; it’s a sad part of human history. One of the basic fundaments of fascism is violence, fear and peer pressure. These 'incitements' have been used by rulers throughout the history of human civilization. Time to learn from previous mistakes...

Anyhow, it doesn’t really matter much if you and I think Breivik is nutcase or not. What this moron in fact has accomplished (at least in the Nordic countries) is a genuine disgust for anything that comes even close to extreme right-wing populism. They are smoked for years after this.

As I said – everybody hates violence and extreme right-wing populism will forever be connected to Breivik’s terror attack on innocent teenagers on the island, and there’s nothing they can do to change this fact.

Your view on fascism is the romantic one. The sociological definition of fascism is the believe that since we are stuck in a social darwinistic struggle between countries/ ideologies/ races that it's best to organize society as a monoculture with a military build-up. It is easy to see why Germany, Japan, and Italy fell for that trap.

Social darwinism is a compelling belief. You need to kick most of population and certainly the military several times in the head to see the failure of the argument.

When it comes to gassing: There are a lot of references in Breivik's document towards the Netherlands. I can only conclude given recent events that the Netherlands have become an exporter of bigot irrational fears, I have some of those Oslo's kids blood on my hand.

The (very moderate) rightwing party in Norway grew after Breivik's attack.

The Dutch society also fails to tackle rightwing populism at the moment. As a society, we have moved over the last decade from tolerance towards loudmouth bigotry, irrational fears, and we are now starting -though in an innocent manner- to take away basic human rights from Islamic parts of our population. I have been wary of that and am very angry since what I predicted, though in a different form, now happened in Norway.

You think that we won't end up gassing our muslims? The trend is straightforward towards a new form of national-socialism. Yeah, it's unlikely we end up gassing people, but as a society we have little defense against it. I.e., when I talk to you (US I assume) about hate speech, you know exactly what I mean and what will come of it; even Evo's response is in a sense very US. Most people in the Netherlands just allow it at the moment and make fun with it.

There is little to assume that we will move away from rightwing populism, most people are unaware the threats involved. What I see at the moment in the Netherlands is a state of collective denial, we didn't pull the trigger so were not in anyway responsible. If I were to say that we are moving towards national-socialism, people would laugh or partly agree and reason that this time is different and it's worth it.

 

[rhody]

For those interested:

http://www.vadvert.co.uk/entertainment/16803-discovery-channel-investigates-one-of-the-worst-shooting-sprees-of-all-time-in-norway-massacre-the-killers-mind.html"

Special Premieres Monday, August 8 at 9PM ET/PT on Discovery Channel;
Encores on Investigation Discovery August 11 at 8PM ET/PT and
Military Channel August 16 at 10PM ET/PT

I am interested in how good Discovery gets the facts. If those who live in Norway wish to comment. I realize that feelings are still raw and understand if you don't want to watch the program.

Rhody...

 

[pftest]

I am from the Netherlands and I have been told that the populist right is smaller in Norway (count your blessings). In the Netherlands, as stated, the support for them is 15%, and I do believe that rightwing fundamentalism must come as a shock to Norway. It must be akin to experiencing racial violence for the first time.

The idea that criticism of islam is like racism is just plain nonsensical.

But to describe the rightwing view:

A large part of people voting for them believe that the system is governed by the left, that journalism is made by lefties only, that the rightwing view is not heard or acted upon, that the government sold out on its population by allowing the Arab immigrants to stay in this country, that subsequently democracy doesn't work to protect the public from Islam influences, that Islam is a backward belief of pedophiles and polygamists which is inferior to the western world heritage

Ive seen people react in shock to the term "backwards" also when Hirsi Ali said it, however this seems to be an emotional response. One may think the word is a pure insult, but please realize that "backwards" has an actual meaning to it (being "behind in time" compared to something else). Some religions and cultures really are decades or hundreds of years behind on the liberties that western culture has achieved. Sex with children and polygamy is black in white in the quran/hadith so if you think the they have nothing to do with each other this just shows a lack of knowledge on the subject.

, that -subsequently- the common public is allowed to break down the system and strongly oppose left

Yes, that's what democracy is about.

-the traitors of the country,- and if necessary, -the believe of a minority- overrule the left suppression by violence.

Dont know where you got that from.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I am interested in how good Discovery gets the facts. If those who live in Norway wish to comment. I realize that feelings are still raw and understand if you don't want to watch the program.

Rhody...

(I don’t live in Norway, but in Sweden, a 3 hr drive from Oslo)

From what I understand, they have leading experts on criminal psychology to examine* the mind and the motives of Behring Breivik, and I think they use all available (public) facts this far. I would be very surprised if they could get hands on any "inside information" at this stage, in national tragedy like this...

(Maybe arildno can help you more)


*in person is out of question, AFAICT

 

[pftest]

(I don’t live in Norway, but in Sweden, a 3 hr drive from Oslo)

From what I understand, they have leading experts on criminal psychology to examine* the mind and the motives of Behring Breivik, and I think they use all available (public) facts this far. I would be very surprised if they could get hands on any "inside information" at this stage, in national tragedy like this...

(Maybe arildno can help you more)


*in person is out of question, AFAICT

I saw about half of the show. One of the criminal psychology experts i saw on it seemed a bit sensationalist, like he was trying to put as many different personality disorders on Breivik as possible, and unsubstantiated also. It reminded me a bit about a discovery show about hitler i once saw. In it, hitler was portrayed as having almost all personality disorders, trauma's and bizarre things in existence. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like "hitler was a drug addict, he killed/raped his mother, had sex with his sister, was involved in her suicide, he had this disease and that disease, psychopath, autistic, sadistic, etc.". I am sure that such a famous person has been studied by many people with many different views, but when you squish it all together in a 1hr show it becomes ridiculous.

 

[arildno]

"The (very moderate) rightwing party in Norway grew after Breivik's attack."

That is incorrect. The Labour Party has gotten a sympathy boost of roughly 10 percentile points, whereas the other parties has had some decrease.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I saw about half of the show ...

I just realized I misinterpreted rhody’s question (in a hurry and slightly 'lost in translation' ), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] facts... sorry...

Anyhow, we don’t know for sure if Breivik is mad, nuts, schizophrenic, crazy, brain-damaged, etc; but we do know that this guy is NOT normal, by any standards. Besides the horrific massacre committed, he demanded the King to resign and the PM to leave and that he should be appointed Minister of Defense, before talking to the police.

Then he talked without halt for 9 hrs...

 

[arildno]

Actually, Breivik is willing so far to speak of everything EXCEPT revealing accomplices.
He demands the abdication of the government in order to disclose other terror cells, and as of today, he has not given in on that issue.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ah, thanks arild. Have you heard anything about the two Swedes (on FB)?

 

[rhody]

I just realized I misinterpreted rhody’s question (in a hurry and slightly 'lost in translation' ), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] facts... sorry...

Anyhow, we don’t know for sure if Breivik is mad, nuts, schizophrenic, crazy, brain-damaged, etc; but we do know that this guy is NOT normal, by any standards. Besides the horrific massacre committed, he demanded the King to resign and the PM to leave and that he should be appointed Minister of Defense, before talking to the police.

Then he talked without halt for 9 hrs...

Some main points the experts made (based mostly on news reports and them examining his 1500 page rambling manifesto) and no direct contact was:

a: Has narcissistic tendencies (I agree), speaks of using makeup and looking your best before addressing the media
b: Wants to be the center of attention (I agree)
c: Methodical and meticulous in his planning (mention was made to him acquiring the fertilizer, and how it easily a red flag could have been raised) (he rented a farm house in the country about a month before the attack to quietly assemble his truck bomb)
d: Has long term goal of inspiring others to continue his cause even as he is placed in prision
e: Toward the end of the program it said contrary to news reports he tended to be a loner, and was considered "odd" by others who knew him.
f: There was a confusing report by one of the survivors who asked him to spare his life while he shot others on the beach, that he passed him by, and later it said this same person survived by hiding under the dead bodies of others. I empathize with his account, but was a bit surprised this inconsistency slipped through. I DVR'd the program and will watch it again to see if I missed something, or got my facts incorrect.

Overall, I would give the program a B .. B+. Definitely not of "60 Minutes" quality, but decent. We won't know much more until world class experts are allowed access to him.

Rhody...

The biggest punishment IMO that he can receive at the moment is not to be allowed to address the media. This is what he longs for. I still have a hard time believing he could look people in the eye up close and personal and simply execute them, there is nothing more horrendous than that, at least not to me.

 

[pftest]

I just realized I misinterpreted rhody’s question (in a hurry and slightly 'lost in translation' ), i.e. – I am interested in how (the very) good Discovery get(s) (all these) [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] facts... sorry...

Anyhow, we don’t know for sure if Breivik is mad, nuts, schizophrenic, crazy, brain-damaged, etc; but we do know that this guy is NOT normal, by any standards. Besides the horrific massacre committed, he demanded the King to resign and the PM to leave and that he should be appointed Minister of Defense, before talking to the police.

Then he talked without halt for 9 hrs...

Yes he's not normal. I think he probably has problems with empathy, like he is unable to imagine the suffering he would cause. Maybe he is able but thinks the end justifies the means. As for his demands, he might have simply expressed this as something he wants, as in "i wish the king and government resigned, the country would be better". That wouldn't be that weird, if you ask any person on the street about what kind of government they would like they would end up with something similar.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Your view on fascism is the romantic one.

Hmm romantic... thanks, I think I like it... maybe better than being a doomsday hysterics, slightly out of touch with reality. :tongue:

The sociological definition of fascism is the believe that since we are stuck in a social darwinistic struggle between countries/ ideologies/ races that it's best to organize society as a monoculture with a military build-up. It is easy to see why Germany, Japan, and Italy fell for that trap.

And you’re calling me a racist?

Social darwinism is a compelling belief. You need to kick most of population and certainly the military several times in the head to see the failure of the argument.

... a lot of kicking and failures ...

When it comes to gassing: There are a lot of references in Breivik's document towards the Netherlands. I can only conclude given recent events that the Netherlands have become an exporter of bigot irrational fears, I have some of those Oslo's kids blood on my hand.

Too 'melodramatic' and actually wrong, Breivik’s most frequent contacts (abroad) were Swedish neo-nazis on different forums on the net, where among other things bombs was the topic. The http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expressen.se%2Fnyheter%2F1.2513503%2Ftva-svenskar-jagas-for-koppling-till-behring-breivik&act=url" (extreme rightwing) that (on FB) have mentioned they work (one as 'co-director') on Breivik’s (fake) company Geofarm.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expressen.se%2Fnyheter%2F1.2510202%2Fbreivik-blev-rasande-pa-sin-bombresa-i-sverige&act=url" for the deadly bombings in Oslo, from Wroclaw in Poland, delivered to Karlstad in Sweden (not far from where I live), and he went to Karlstad to get the delivery personally.

With your 'logic', I should not only have "blood on my hands", but also being 'accomplice'. But I prefer not use this kind of melodramatic setting – it will not help the victims or their families.

The (very moderate) rightwing party in Norway grew after Breivik's attack.

Wrong again. http://translate.google.com/transla...el.aspx?programid=83&artikel=4615999&act=url" of the rightwing Fremskrittspartiet until 2006. This is of course NOT a positive factor, and the party has serious trouble with their 'image'. Instead (as arildno points out) Arbeiderpartiet (Labour) has a boost of 10%.

The Dutch society also fails to tackle rightwing populism at the moment. As a society, we have moved over the last decade from tolerance towards loudmouth bigotry, irrational fears, and we are now starting -though in an innocent manner- to take away basic human rights from Islamic parts of our population. I have been wary of that and am very angry since what I predicted, though in a different form, now happened in Norway.

What on Earth are you talking about!? Take away basic human rights?? Please, you have to back up these kind hysterical comments with some kind of reliable sources – otherwise it’s a violation of PF rules and a contributor to the "irrational fears" you’re trying to prevent.

You think that we won't end up gassing our muslims?

Absolutely, anyone who thinks we will has exactly the same mental problems as Behring Breivik...

The trend is straightforward towards a new form of national-socialism.

Really?? Turn on your TV tonight and watch 16,000 policemen in London, fighting a slightly different "trend"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDgxEYTQk50

I.e., when I talk to you (US I assume) about hate speech, you know exactly what I mean and what will come of it; even Evo's response is in a sense very US. Most people in the Netherlands just allow it at the moment and make fun with it.

Sweden actually, and yes we do have a lot of neo-nazis here, in the streets and in a 'lighter version' (in suites) in the parliament. But this far, they are a minority that gets their a*s kicked, both in the streets and parliament. Anyhow, I think we have a fairly good reason to laugh at them:

[PLAIN]http://petterssons.bloggsida.se/files/2011/07/islamic-center-2.jpg

There is little to assume that we will move away from rightwing populism, most people are unaware the threats involved. What I see at the moment in the Netherlands is a state of collective denial, we didn't pull the trigger so were not in anyway responsible. If I were to say that we are moving towards national-socialism, people would laugh or partly agree and reason that this time is different and it's worth it.

You got to realize that this horrendous tragedy was a *BLOW* for the extreme rightwing, neo-nazis, etc.