News Bomb blast in Oslo; PM's office building targeted.

[Newai]

Mr. Breivik is now charged by the most serious paragraph in Norwegian law, paragraph 147a), dubbed the "terror paragraph".
The maximum penalty is 21 years.

However, FORTUNATELY, a few years ago, we introduced in our penal system a so-called "ruling of indefinite confinement", which was meant to be used, in addition to the formal penalty can keep a criminal in confinement indefinitely (i.e, theoretically for life).

It seems he bought the fertilizers used for bomb making (nitrate compounds??) through a company he had started, Breivik Geofarm

21 years? Was that regardless of possible deaths?

 

[206PiruBlood]

Does anyone know how the perpetrator was apprehended? Did he simply give himself up to the police when they arrived?

 

[disregardthat]

Does anyone know how the perpetrator was apprehended? Did he simply give himself up to the police when they arrived?

Yes, in a report the police said that he simply put down his weapons and gave himself up.

 

[arildno]

Breivik has now fully confessed to both attacks, according to his lawyer, Lippestad.

 

[Astronuc]

Gunman's background puzzles police in Norway
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-background-puzzles-police-norway-044701742.html

 

[arildno]

The document.no connection is mainly from 2009, last post from october 2010.
In his "manifesto", he dismisses the document.no-group as "a moderate conservative group" just committed to "talking".

Moderate in HIS view of course, but commitment to the concept of the Rechtsstaat is a pillar of that community. It might possibly be dubbed reactionary; the English philosopher Roger Scruton (editor of National rewview, I believe) is one of the main inspirators for the editor of document.no.

A much more "interesting" web connection of Anders Behring Breivik is some Swedish Neonazi site in which how to make such a bomb was actually discussed.

 

[Jack21222]

Mr. Breivik is now charged by the most serious paragraph in Norwegian law, paragraph 147a), dubbed the "terror paragraph".
The maximum penalty is 21 years.

However, FORTUNATELY, a few years ago, we introduced in our penal system a so-called "ruling of indefinite confinement", which was meant to be used, in addition to the formal penalty can keep a criminal in confinement indefinitely (i.e, theoretically for life).

It seems he bought the fertilizers used for bomb making (nitrate compounds??) through a company he had started, Breivik Geofarm

Wait, the most serious penalty in Norwegian law is 21 years? I could go to Norway and murder somebody, and I'd only get that? (at least before the ruling of indefinite confinement came around.)

In America, murder often carries a life sentence. 20 years just seems incredibly light for murder. A 20 year old could murder somebody and still be out by the age of 40 to live out his life.

 

[MATLABdude]

Wait, the most serious penalty in Norwegian law is 21 years? I could go to Norway and murder somebody, and I'd only get that? (at least before the ruling of indefinite confinement came around.)

In America, murder often carries a life sentence. 20 years just seems incredibly light for murder. A 20 year old could murder somebody and still be out by the age of 40 to live out his life.

Life imprisonment doesn't always mean imprisonment for life (including the US: parole eligibility between 15 and 35 years into sentence):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment

Giving up your youth seems to be a pretty high price to pay. There was a Superman I got years and years ago (and it was probably 10-15 years old when I got it, courtesy of a few milk crates of hand-me-downs from my older cousins). In it, there was an alien race that imposed long sentences on murderers, but would let the convicts out the same day they got in. They just aged the convicts whatever their sentence was.

 

[Evo]

Can they not convict him of each individual death and make the sentences concurrent? I've seen that here in the US. Where the person might have gotten out of prison, except that they tried the person on the crimes individually, then ruled that the criminal would serve their sentences one after the other.

Surely the killings of the students could be done this way.

 

[Jack21222]

Can they not convict him of each individual death and make the sentances concurrent? I've seen that here in the US. Where the person might have gotten out of prison, except that they tried the person on the crimes individually, then ruled that the criminal would serve their sentances one after the other.

Surely the killings of the students could be done this way.

I certainly hope they can. Gunning down kids one by one is probably the most monstrous thing I can think of any human being ever doing. Even when McVeigh killed a bunch of kids, he didn't get to sit there and watch them beg for their life before pulling the trigger. He just parked a vehicle and ran off.

 

[rootX]

Emotions should never prevail the laws. I don't see anything getting achieved in giving him harsh sentence under assumption that he was mentally unstable.

 

[Evo]

Emotions should never prevail the laws. I don't see anything getting achieved to give him harsh sentence under assumption that he was mentally unstable.

It will never be safe to allow this person back into society. If they determine him to be criminally insane, then he should be locked away for the rest of his life.

 

[Jack21222]

Emotions should never prevail the laws. I don't see anything getting achieved in giving him harsh sentence under assumption that he was mentally unstable.

How about under the assumption that if he ever gets out... even at age 80, that he'd just continue his silly crusade and kill more people?

 

[arildno]

Can they not convict him of each individual death and make the sentences concurrent? I've seen that here in the US. Where the person might have gotten out of prison, except that they tried the person on the crimes individually, then ruled that the criminal would serve their sentences one after the other.

Surely the killings of the students could be done this way.

That has never been done before in the Norwegian penal system.
The conservative/libertarian Party of Progress has aired the idea before, but as yet, they haven't gained ground on this issue.

I think, however, that no one will even DARE not to do find scrutinize every legal possibility we have to ensure that Mr. Breivik will get full, effective penalty for the rest of his life.

If anything "good" can come out of this case, it may be that the realization may finally dawn upon sufficient numbers of people that if you do something really, REALLY bad, then you have, for ever, lost your rights as a free citizen.

For too long, "rehabilitation of criminals" has been the totally dominant dogma in Norwegian justiciary, as opposed to punishment and safeguarding of the general public.

 

[thorium1010]

Emotions should never prevail the laws. I don't see anything getting achieved in giving him harsh sentence under assumption that he was mentally unstable.

Mentally unstable should not kill or harm other people or be a threat to other people in the society. Its not a question of harsh punishment but it also serve as a reminder to others they cannot kill or harm innocent people.

 

[arildno]

It will never be safe to allow this person back into society. If they determine him to be criminally insane, then he should be locked away for the rest of his life.

That is essentially what the "judgment of confinement" is meant to address.
Previously, it has been mainly used against serial pedophiles and rapists.

 

[Evo]

That is essentially what the "judgment of confinement" is meant to address.
Previously, it has been mainly used against serial pedophiles and rapists.

How exactly does the "judgment of confinement" work? Is it set in place as a life sentence at the time of sentencing? Or is it some convoluted process that could get bungled? I mean, it would be unthinkable that someone like this would be set loose due to a technicality.

 

[arildno]

How exactly does the "judgment of confinement" work? Is it set in place as a life sentence at the time of sentencing? Or is it some convoluted process that could get bungled? I mean, it would be unthinkable that someone like this would be set loose due to a technicality.

I'm not quite sure (I don't know much of it, really).
But, if I have understood it correctly, it does NOT have a time limit, but a regular application process for release, where some sort of evaluating board determines whether it is "safe" to release the culprit, or if he is to be held in confinement for yet a new period.

Also, someone has said that a person can be held in involuntary confinement for a quite different reason: For his own "safety". I don't know if such an option exists.

 

[EnumaElish]

My deepest condolences. May strength be granted to the people of Oslo, and of Norway. The children, the young men and the young women massacred there, are our sons and daughters.

 

[rootX]

It will never be safe to allow this person back into society. If they determine him to be criminally insane, then he should be locked away for the rest of his life.

Yes I agree but it's not our job to state if he will be safe or not safe given our lack of understanding of the legal framework.

Keeping all opinions/emotions aside, I will be really interested if someone can provide little information on rehabilitation/"handling mentally unstable criminals" programs in Europe.

 

[russ_watters]

Emotions should never prevail the laws. I don't see anything getting achieved in giving him harsh sentence under assumption that he was mentally unstable.

If someone is mentally ill it wouldn't make any sense to release them - you're just enabling them to do the same thing again!

 

[Willowz]

Did anybody read the motives? Crazy stuff.

 

[zomgwtf]

The sentence is 21 years at which they get a chance to get out but if they are still a danger to the public they are automatically sentenced for 5 extra years indefinitely. Also, this man is going to be public enemy number one. Murdering 80+ youth? Terrorist attack on the capital? Anyone who thinks this man will have a fun easy time in prison is sorely mistaken.

He'll face voluntary separation from the rest of the inmates in order to protect himself.

I doubt he'll be getting out if he survives.

 

[Astronuc]

Some interesting commentary in a NY Times article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24oslo.html

 

[lisab]

Horrendous events. I could not stop myself, I found myself trying to imagine my feelings if my own son, in his teenage years, went off to some camp with his friends and had his life cut short by some maniac. It’s a thought too grotesque to deal with, but it’s the reality too many Norwegian parents are dealing with right now.

Of course there is an inevitability to the situation that early speculations included the possibility of some revenge attack by Muslim terrorists. Always the point is that Muslim terrorists do not represent the vast majority of Muslim people, any more than Breivik represents the majority of Norwegian people, even those of a nationalist outlook. He has been described as a white Christian fundamentalist. There’s the word that is your common denominator – ‘fundamentalist’. This word is taking on the meaning ‘person prepared to suppress their humanity in the name of dogma’.

Re the bolded text - yes, I agree completely. In general, there is an understandable hesitation in societies to restrain the devout...perhaps that leaves an 'unguarded' path for the mentally unstable to commit horrific crimes.

 

[Willowz]

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

Chilling words that seem befitting. Not to take things too literally.

 

[Danger]

I'm afraid that I haven't actually read most of the posts here, only because I'm somewhat occupied otherwise. My sole reason for logging on tonight was to address this subject. When I first heard of this tragedy, my thoughts immediately turned to my friend Arildno. Unfortunately, I was so gobsmacked that I absolutely could not think of anything appropriate to say. I still can't, but I also can't wait any longer. The best that I can manage is to offer whatever condolences are proper to all Norwegians. To me, and probably to others who live in somewhat more violent environments, this came as the ultimate shock. All of Scandinavia has seemed to me to be the most civilized place on Earth. I know that they (Norwegians, Swedes, Swiss, etc.) are cunning, technologically brilliant, and vicious when in a defensive posture, but the idea that one would turn upon his countrymen just doesn't fit the profile.
I wish that I could offer words of comfort, but I honestly don't know that comfort can be had in a situation like this no matter what one might say. The best that I can do is hope that time (a lot of time) can provide some healing to the families of the victims.

 

[arildno]

Your words ARE comforting, Danger.
If not yet for other reasons than reminding me, other Norwegians that a sane, moral world still exists and that it is far, far stronger than every such hate-filled person could imagine.

I wish to quote the the words of one of the Labour Youths who was at Utøya:
"If one man can create so much hate, imagine all the love we can create together".
This was cited at CNN by the aspiring politician Stine Renate Håheim, and repeated by Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg at a national memorial service.

Here is the clip from CNN:
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080708

 

[Danger]

"If one man can create so much hate, imagine all the love we can create together".

That, my friend, is a very cool statement.
I'm afraid that your link is sort of useless to me because I can't understand either printed or spoken Norwegian. Maybe I can remedy that some time, but for now it's unintelligible to me. If you can point me toward an English translation, I'll be glad to check it out.
One of the first things that I realized about you, back in the first few years of my PF involvement before we became friends, is that one of the things that you are very good at is staying strong. Keep on keepin' on, bro.

 

[arildno]

They talk English at the CNN video clip in the link??