Breaking the Taboo: Black Women and White Men Relationships

[marcus]

Well, why not ? Personally I definitely consider it a big turn on if a woman is a little bi !

OK, trying to contribute seriously to the thread, I have to confess that I too am a bit puzzled trying to figure out what Ivan Seeking wants to say. I'd just like to draw you attention to the fact that he has a qoute from Colin Powell in his sig. So it is probably save to say that bashing black people is not his intention...

Great sig quote, Ivan!
"What is the greatest threat facing us now? People will say it's terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No... Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?" - Colin Powell

The threat is American Facism, baby. The sheepification of the electorate. The erosion of democracy and the growth of big media mind control. You said it Colin! Beautiful! That's my kind of miliary hero, I'll tell you.

I want that Colin quote. But I have to keep links to super-useful QG and cosmo text in my sig as a resource.
======================

so what does Ivan mean by his Opener Post? Colonel Pancho you confess that you too are a bit puzzled.
Come on. He is mixing in some sex interest in order to rivet our attention on some serious social headaches: crime demographics, arrest and conviction demographics, prison demographics.
Those issues are so unwelcome and so difficult to think about constructively that the only way he can get an active thread going is by wafting the perfumed hanky of a little vicarious excitement in with the seriousness. Black women-White men is a non-issue. The issue is why so many black guys in jail. Is it genetic? Is it the System? How do you identify the factors. Where do you place the blame. What's the remedy? and so forth. Ivan drops a bomb with some irrelevant sexy tattoos on it.

 

[vociferous]

There are some interesting studies that I have seen about interracial relationships.

Firstly, it seems that men of all races are pretty colorblind, but certainly not blind, as physical attractiveness is their primary motivation, regardless of race or ethnicity (this is based on a study conducted in Manhattan, so it could be slightly different in Alabama).

Women, on the other hand, all prefer to date within their race, except for Asian women. Black women have a strong preference for black men. Hispanic and non Hispanic white women have a moderate preference for dating within their own race/ethnicity.

Asian men and black women are the most rare interracial pairing. I forget what the most common was, but I believe it was Asian women and white men.

 

[GCT]

Asian men and black women are the most rare interracial pairing. I forget what the most common was, but I believe it was Asian women and white men.

I wonder how the latter fares with the pairing between " black " men and " white " women considering the fact that pure " black " men are rare - pure African genes - their first names may be Teyshawn however their last names are always Smith and the like.

 

[marcus]

Who the hoot cares who dates whom?
or who has sex with whom?
Ivan started this thread about prison demographics.
It represents a problem.
What can be done? Try being creative. Get your head out of the box.

EDIT: not directed at you GCT, didn't see your post. No one in particular, self included.

 

[LydiaAC]

I am a black woman, and I think it's stupid to assume that black women are open to dating outside of their race just, because black men aren't up to par. I have been dating outside my race since, I first started dating. I never focused on color and it has never been an issue for me. I have met some great white men and black men alike. People keep making these comments about how black men are struggling. I have dated educated black men with their own homes, decent jobs, and open minds. The problem with most black women are that they are willing to settle for the "black guy" off the block just because, he's black. Some women aren't open to dating outside of their race that's their personal preference just like some white men aren't interested in dating outside of their race. However, I can see the beauty in a variety of personalities, skin colors of men. I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color. White men approach me much more often than black men therefore, I have dated more white men than black. But, that doesn't mean that it is, because their is some shortage of black men out there. Please bloggers have a more open mind.

Hello Trainer5:
What it is happening in this thread is that we are trying to treat a social situation as a scientific problem. When doing so, it is very easy to offend people.
The argued reason for black women dating white men could be right or wrong. If you see the case for this explanation excessively weak, it is natural that you want to call it absurd or even stupid, but this is only a very emotional way to say "wrong".
You talk us about your personal experience and that is very interesting because experience is the base of knowledge. However, social trends cannot be evaluated only in the basis of one personal experience.
That is the nerd's dilemma. Must I use the scientific method only to understand the physical world but not the social world? I do not think so. Social problems are so great that they deserve to be treated with the best method, the scientific method.
The problem is that the scientific method requires to set hypothesis, which not all of them would be good ones. We must try and fail. We could say a lot of stupidities in our search for an answer. Nevertheless, to be creative and give a chance to a lot of different possibilities is what makes an "open mind", not the opposite.
LydiaAC

 

[Monique]

The argued reason for black women dating white men could be right or wrong. If you see the case for this explanation excessively weak, it is natural that you want to call it absurd or even stupid, but this is only a very emotional way to say "wrong".

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What are you trying to say with those numbers? There are also many white men in jail, does that make every single white male responsible for that group of people? There are disproportionally more male than females in prison, does that mean females should go and seek homosexual relationships with other females?

If you look, you will see that we are talking about numbers like one out of three young black men [with criminal histories]. For professional and upwardly mobile black women who don't want to date a person with criminal history, this certainly does narrow the field. And the OP began with testimony supporting the claim.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

You may find it stupid and narrow minded, but it may be a fact nonetheless. There is no group in the US that compares to young black men in regards to legal problems. It is a huge problem here.

 

[marcus]

If you look, you will see that we are talking about numbers like one out of three young black men [with criminal histories]. For professional and upwardly mobile black women who don't want to date a person with criminal history, this certainly does narrow the field.

Ivan this is an absolutely great thread!
A wizard thread with sizzle. good for the SocialSci forum.
But frankly what are you driving at?
professional upward mobile black women will date whoever including non-blacks and more power to them. it is their business.

so what is the problem? Aren't you really pointing at the system of criminal justice and the correctional institutions in our country? Maybe I misunderstood the real thrust of your opening post.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Who the hoot cares who dates whom?
or who has sex with whom?
Ivan started this thread about prison demographics.
It represents a problem.
What can be done? Try being creative. Get your head out of the box.

EDIT: not directed at you GCT, didn't see your post. No one in particular, self included.

Actually, it began with a CNN report about black women who are dating white men because of a lack of eligible black men. But it does ultimately speak to the problems of young black men and what can be done.

For those who sense a racist bias, it is anything but that. I grew up with gang-bangers. I understand and am highly sensitive to the problems of poor black families. But pretending its not a problem is simply wishful thinking. The article cited helps to accentuate this fact.

 

[marcus]

Ivan, in honor of the fact that this is a cool thread, I will confer on it some utterly outrageous out-of-box thinking. Let's look at the situation from the point of view of an hypothetical RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST who believes the current situation (with its several facets both dating and incarceration) is part of the Divine Plan.

God clearly must want the races in America to intermingle because he has seen to it that we raise lots of black and latino kids in situations conducive to bad education high drugs and high crime and getting put away---leading lots of upward mobile black and latino women to date white guys! The Divine Plan is for them to date and get married and have lots of interracial interethnic babies. So let us offer...

A MODEST PROPOSAL

Let's carry out the Divine Plan even quicker and speed things up by arranging even more drug, gang, criminal behavior and putting EVEN MORE black and latino guys in jail, so even more of the women will date white guys and there will be even more mixed-race babies, which is God's obvious Will.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Many people probably won't like my solution: Legalize drugs.

Why would a 16 year old boy in Watts take a minimum wage job when he can make up to $1000 a day selling drugs? This has always been the problem. And they already do it under threat of death from other gangs, not to mention the threat from the police, so its not like laws make any difference.

An interesting observation from a recent documentary: Blacks were making great strides, and life for blacks had, on the average, continually improved since the civil war, until the late sixties/ early seventies when drugs became popular. At that point, in many respects, the progress was halted.

late edits:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is also a culture of hopelessness to be overcome. And I must say, I think Obama has changed everything! Did anyone else follow the comments of black civil rights leaders at the Democratic National Convention [and elsewhere]. I doubt that there was one dry eye among them. And many blacks, young and old alike, have admitted that they simply can't believe what is happening. I have literally been reduced to tears a number of times just by listening to them talk.

In spite of my personal exposure to the problems discussed, it was a political science professor who really set me straight on all of this: A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

 

[Astronuc]

A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

That's it right there. Too many folks are shut out.

 

[russ_watters]

There is also a culture of hopelessness to be overcome.

In spite of my personal exposure to the problems discussed, it was a political science professor who really set me straight on all of this: A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

Who'se responsibility is it to generate that belief?

 

[russ_watters]

Many people probably won't like my solution: Legalize drugs.

Why would a 16 year old boy in Watts take a minimum wage job when he can make up to $1000 a day selling drugs? This has always been the problem. And they already do it under threat of death from other gangs, not to mention the threat from the police, so its not like laws make any difference.

While that is a very common belief, it just plain isn't true. I don't have the book here (I read my dad's copy), but Freakonomics has a chapter on the operation of drug dealing gangs in Chicago (based on a grad student who essentially joined one). People see the handful of rich drug dealers and see that there is money to be made, but the fact of the matter is that the the "foot soldiers" make very little. The researcher found that both the structure and the economics were very similar to how a fast-food restaurant works. He got himself hooked-up with a small branch (like a McD franchise) with a handful of foot soldiers (the burger flippers) and a leader (the store manager). The leader of the group was a college grad in his mid 20's and he made something like $40-$60k. The foot soldiers made roughly half of minimum wage. Here's some excerpts from the chapter: http://freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch3.html

Regardless, that's evidence of the problem you mention in your next post (the belief problem).

 

[lonton]

A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

Yes, implication may be more meaningful than a traditional advice.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

While that is a very common belief, it just plain isn't true. I don't have the book here (I read my dad's copy), but Freakonomics has a chapter on the operation of drug dealing gangs in Chicago (based on a grad student who essentially joined one). People see the handful of rich drug dealers and see that there is money to be made, but the fact of the matter is that the the "foot soldiers" make very little. The researcher found that both the structure and the economics were very similar to how a fast-food restaurant works. He got himself hooked-up with a small branch (like a McD franchise) with a handful of foot soldiers (the burger flippers) and a leader (the store manager). The leader of the group was a college grad in his mid 20's and he made something like $40-$60k. The foot soldiers made roughly half of minimum wage. Here's some excerpts from the chapter: http://freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch3.html

Regardless, that's evidence of the problem you mention in your next post (the belief problem).

I agree completely in that the reality of the drug world doesn't meet expectations, but it is the promise of money based on a few big scores that gets kids involved. And they are often drawn into this with malicious intent. But it is also about the culture that it creates, just as we saw with the prohibition on alcohol. Gangs literally run the neighborhoods because they make a fortune selling illegal drugs. MS13 has been so successful that they are now operating in a good number of countries.

The drug laws don't work and they make the problem worse.

But that isn't the point of this thread. That is just my perspective on one aspect of the problem. And my Conservative hero William F Buckley happened to agree, so I must be right.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Who'se responsibility is it to generate that belief?

Are you asking where to point or how to help?

 

[russ_watters]

Are you asking where to point or how to help?

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

 

[marcus]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

I think it is a reasonable question, and provocative. Responsibility is an interesting ethical concept---the root meaning is probably something like "who must answer?"
"whose job is on the line if it doesn't get fixed?"
"who has some explaining to do?"
"who will be blamed by History if things screw up bigtime?"

Isn't that the etymological root idea? Who has to respond. Who will be held accountable.

We can list various possibilities. I'm not sure if the problem is adequately described by saying culture of hopelessness, but for discussion sake let's say hopelessness is the problem and consider who might be held responsible:

the hopeless individual is responsible for generating hope within himself (he should be smart enough to realize that if he works and obeys the law he can get a better life)

his parents are responsible----his mother should have practiced abstinence, or taught him good work habits. Or else his grandmother, if she raised him, is the one responsible.

the minister of the church his grandmother goes to is responsible. It is a minister's job to teach people hope, and instill in them a desire to live orderly productive lives.

black women are responsible---they should only smile at boys who get good grades in school and stay out of trouble----they should only date young fellows who attend junior college and study business accounting. this would reform the neighborhood overnight*.

the politicians are responsible---they should make speeches to encourage hard work and set up various incentive programs. They shouldn't coddle people. If society collapses, they will be blamed by History. If problems get even worse they might lose their jobs.

there really isn't a problem, so no one is responsible. It is just Darwinian evolution and the Free Market taking their natural course---we can isolate the patches of vice and squalor by building various sorts of walls, and let natural processes deal with whatever is inside the walls. Perhaps there will be a plague.

Does anyone have other notions of how responsibility might be shared in this matter?

*See the post #25 by Trainer
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1871682#post1871682
She says "I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color." This should be an inspiration to us all. (seriously)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

For those who feel a sense of social responsiblity for everyone, it the responsibility of every American to address problems that damage the country and reduce the value of human life. For those who don't care, it is someone elses problem.

That's the great thing about freedom: If one wants to bury their head in the sand and ask who else should do something, they can do so.

 

[LydiaAC]

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia

 

[baywax]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

 

[Monique]

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia

That must be a cultural difference, because for me it is a non-issue what the color of someone's skin is. I do see communities where people only associate with their own ethnical class and yes I think that is being narrow-minded, not too long ago I went to a festive occasion where 99% were of the same ethnic class, with me being the exception. As for the thread: apparently there still is a taboo for women of African descend to associate with men of European descend and they are starting to break through it, good for them.

 

[vociferous]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

 

[baywax]

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

How productive is building a wall between you and your neighbour? I think the tensions between neighbours down there could have been avoided with some real sharing and some total disclosure of all intentions. I don't blame anyone that's put themselves in situations where they are made to be slaves (Egypt) or unwanted (throughout Europe) or subjected to genocidal maniacs (Nazis). But, the Hebrew intelligence is such that it has risen above retribution and revenge toward prosperity and goodwill (ignoring the back and forth warring with neighbours). Thanks for that.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

"The values of the black community"... you mean the African American community? I would imagine their values are not far from your own. They need food, shelter and mobility to get to a good job that can pay for the former. Beyond that, they need the safety of the street and the park for their children to run around and have fun.

What seems to be happening is that an extremely small portion of the African American culture is jumping on the 'gangsta" wagon and pumping out dubious noises that are accepted by an entire generation of youth who need to annoy their parents with something that doesn't sound like "Classic Rock". This has facilitated and represented a sub-culture of "gangstas" which has become a kind of icon of the youth (Caucasian and African and Indian and so on). This turn of events has led to more kids, from every sub-species of humans, trying on the "bling" of "gangstahood". Its certainly not confined to the African American community.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

And that change will come with positive reinforcement, not a drug war. Leading by example, not brow beating and brutality. Thanks for this insight.

 

[baywax]

Not that I know a thing about it. And please forgive me for any faux pas or offences. I've been trying to "liberate" the First Nations of Canada for as long as I've been alive. The only thing that's worked is to show them their long, distinguished past and give it back to them.

People who have been repressed by guns, booze and poor treatment and even slavery only look like they're doing well now because they are finally getting back what they had all along, before it was taken away by a few porky sloths in waistcoats.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It seems consistent with what I have seen that women tend to date with in their own 'race/culture' more often than not. It also seems consistent with a theory I have that women tend to create a model in their mind of what they think their perfect mate would be like at a young age. Since most people think more visually and tend to judge people and prospective mates most heavily on looks I can easily see where women would tend to create these models with the 'appropriate' skin colour.

In the case of black women I am not sure I can agree with you Ivan, or the article, that these prison statistics play that large a role in this apparent phenomenon of black women choosing mates outside of their own 'race'. Certainly they do to some degree. A person who goes to jail is that much less likely to go to college or be capable of finding a decent job. They are also that much more likely to wind up back in prison, doing drugs, becoming alcoholics, ect. These are all significant factors in choosing a potential mate and would seem to narrow the choices greatly.

We're talking more about 'successful' black women though. More specificly women who have gone to college and/or found employment in the white collar world. Even if we were to assume that the black men in college and the white collar work place were proportionally represented (which they are not, I know) that would still mean there are more men of other 'races/cultures' than there are black men. And if men are far less likely to have a racial preference for their mates then that narrows the pool of prospective mates even further for a black woman who wants a black man. So it just stands to reason that as more black women become more academicly successful and find better jobs we will see more of them choosing mates outside of their race. Women who are educated, financially successful, and older (if they have waited until this point to look for a serious relationship) are likely to care less about their mates physical appearance aswell.

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this a lot and even met black men who do not like to date black women. They even warn white men away from black women because apparently black women have a tendency to be much more domineering than white women. Whether or not this is true or can even be statisticly quantified I have no idea but it seems to be the perception from my experience. Its not hard to see the possibility of this. Single black mothers are fairly common and while they may often wind up with rebellious and troubled sons, for lack of a father figure, they will be more likely to produce strong independent daughters. Since the average man seems to have difficulty dealing with strong independent women this could be a big reason why many black men choose specificly to date outside of their race.

This last bit is probably not very significant in the over all picture but I am just trying to illustrate the many variables there seem to be in this issue. I don't think that black men are hurting for mates any more than black women, and apparently less so.

 

[vociferous]

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this a lot and even met black men who do not like to date black women.

I made reference to I study I read about earlier which showed that while black women were, by far, the group most strongly preferential of dating within their own race, black men had no racial/ethnic preference and tended to judge based on looks as the strongest factor (which was also true in the study of men of all races/ethnicities).

So, if you are an educated black woman, and you are trying to find a black man of similar socio-economic achievement as yourself, it will be difficult because.

1) The ratio of black women to black men who are well-educated or have high earning power is very heavily disproportionate.

2) Black men are as likely to choose someone of another race as they are to choose a black woman.