Breaking the Taboo: Black Women and White Men Relationships

[marcus]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

I think it is a reasonable question, and provocative. Responsibility is an interesting ethical concept---the root meaning is probably something like "who must answer?"
"whose job is on the line if it doesn't get fixed?"
"who has some explaining to do?"
"who will be blamed by History if things screw up bigtime?"

Isn't that the etymological root idea? Who has to respond. Who will be held accountable.

We can list various possibilities. I'm not sure if the problem is adequately described by saying culture of hopelessness, but for discussion sake let's say hopelessness is the problem and consider who might be held responsible:

the hopeless individual is responsible for generating hope within himself (he should be smart enough to realize that if he works and obeys the law he can get a better life)

his parents are responsible----his mother should have practiced abstinence, or taught him good work habits. Or else his grandmother, if she raised him, is the one responsible.

the minister of the church his grandmother goes to is responsible. It is a minister's job to teach people hope, and instill in them a desire to live orderly productive lives.

black women are responsible---they should only smile at boys who get good grades in school and stay out of trouble----they should only date young fellows who attend junior college and study business accounting. this would reform the neighborhood overnight*.

the politicians are responsible---they should make speeches to encourage hard work and set up various incentive programs. They shouldn't coddle people. If society collapses, they will be blamed by History. If problems get even worse they might lose their jobs.

there really isn't a problem, so no one is responsible. It is just Darwinian evolution and the Free Market taking their natural course---we can isolate the patches of vice and squalor by building various sorts of walls, and let natural processes deal with whatever is inside the walls. Perhaps there will be a plague.

Does anyone have other notions of how responsibility might be shared in this matter?

*See the post #25 by Trainer
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1871682#post1871682
She says "I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color." This should be an inspiration to us all. (seriously)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

For those who feel a sense of social responsiblity for everyone, it the responsibility of every American to address problems that damage the country and reduce the value of human life. For those who don't care, it is someone elses problem.

That's the great thing about freedom: If one wants to bury their head in the sand and ask who else should do something, they can do so.

 

[LydiaAC]

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia

 

[baywax]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

 

[Monique]

Hello Monique:
Actually, I always had had the opposite question "Why people marry inside their own race?"
Nevertheless, I love to read what people is writing in this thread. I do not agree with everything, but It does not seem stupid nor narrow minded to me. It does not even seems malicious. If any, I would like to read more replies from black people.
By the way, I am Mexican and we share most of the problems of blacks (hopelessness and so), but maybe this is a topic for other thread.
Lydia

That must be a cultural difference, because for me it is a non-issue what the color of someone's skin is. I do see communities where people only associate with their own ethnical class and yes I think that is being narrow-minded, not too long ago I went to a festive occasion where 99% were of the same ethnic class, with me being the exception. As for the thread: apparently there still is a taboo for women of African descend to associate with men of European descend and they are starting to break through it, good for them.

 

[vociferous]

After seeing what white folks are capable of, I don't trust any of the so and sos.

Let's see. Let's say your great great great great grandfather was abducted from San Diego and taken to Tanzania to be sold at auction into slavery. Then generations of your family developed there under great oppression, continually lambasted with insults and distrust for 200 years. How would your self esteem and your self confidence level look at this end of the ordeal? You would probably, for the most part, believe what anyone thought about you, and act accordingly, unless you were taught by a strong person to rise above all of that hype.

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

 

[baywax]

Jews were treated even worse for two thousand years by European Caucasians, culminating in an attempt to exterminate every European Jew, yet somehow most people of Jewish ancestry have managed to find peace with their former tormentors and become, as a group, productive members of the societies that they live in.

How productive is building a wall between you and your neighbour? I think the tensions between neighbours down there could have been avoided with some real sharing and some total disclosure of all intentions. I don't blame anyone that's put themselves in situations where they are made to be slaves (Egypt) or unwanted (throughout Europe) or subjected to genocidal maniacs (Nazis). But, the Hebrew intelligence is such that it has risen above retribution and revenge toward prosperity and goodwill (ignoring the back and forth warring with neighbours). Thanks for that.

Even when racism against blacks was widespread, they managed to have children which went on to greater economic prosperity and educational achievement than their parents. I think you have to look long and hard at the values of the black community which has gone from emphasizing education (like during the Reconstruction period) and banding together as a community for positive change (like during the civil rights movement) to something where values such as avarice and criminality are celebrated.

"The values of the black community"... you mean the African American community? I would imagine their values are not far from your own. They need food, shelter and mobility to get to a good job that can pay for the former. Beyond that, they need the safety of the street and the park for their children to run around and have fun.

What seems to be happening is that an extremely small portion of the African American culture is jumping on the 'gangsta" wagon and pumping out dubious noises that are accepted by an entire generation of youth who need to annoy their parents with something that doesn't sound like "Classic Rock". This has facilitated and represented a sub-culture of "gangstas" which has become a kind of icon of the youth (Caucasian and African and Indian and so on). This turn of events has led to more kids, from every sub-species of humans, trying on the "bling" of "gangstahood". Its certainly not confined to the African American community.

I think this change of black culture explains why African American men are the only group that is declining in terms of education and economic prosperity while every other group, even groups that face significantly greater barriers to success (like poor, non-English speaking, uneducated, and often illegal immigrants) have continued to improve generationally like most any other immigrant groups. Black immigrants to the United States, many of whom are coming from states in which their ancestors were held in slavery are also able to improve generationally like any other group in the United States.

So, in conclusion, I have to believe that if black women want to date black men of their own social standing, it is going to become increasingly more difficult given the socio-economic trends, and only a dramatic change of values within the black community in the US are going to change that.

And that change will come with positive reinforcement, not a drug war. Leading by example, not brow beating and brutality. Thanks for this insight.

 

[baywax]

Not that I know a thing about it. And please forgive me for any faux pas or offences. I've been trying to "liberate" the First Nations of Canada for as long as I've been alive. The only thing that's worked is to show them their long, distinguished past and give it back to them.

People who have been repressed by guns, booze and poor treatment and even slavery only look like they're doing well now because they are finally getting back what they had all along, before it was taken away by a few porky sloths in waistcoats.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It seems consistent with what I have seen that women tend to date with in their own 'race/culture' more often than not. It also seems consistent with a theory I have that women tend to create a model in their mind of what they think their perfect mate would be like at a young age. Since most people think more visually and tend to judge people and prospective mates most heavily on looks I can easily see where women would tend to create these models with the 'appropriate' skin colour.

In the case of black women I am not sure I can agree with you Ivan, or the article, that these prison statistics play that large a role in this apparent phenomenon of black women choosing mates outside of their own 'race'. Certainly they do to some degree. A person who goes to jail is that much less likely to go to college or be capable of finding a decent job. They are also that much more likely to wind up back in prison, doing drugs, becoming alcoholics, ect. These are all significant factors in choosing a potential mate and would seem to narrow the choices greatly.

We're talking more about 'successful' black women though. More specificly women who have gone to college and/or found employment in the white collar world. Even if we were to assume that the black men in college and the white collar work place were proportionally represented (which they are not, I know) that would still mean there are more men of other 'races/cultures' than there are black men. And if men are far less likely to have a racial preference for their mates then that narrows the pool of prospective mates even further for a black woman who wants a black man. So it just stands to reason that as more black women become more academicly successful and find better jobs we will see more of them choosing mates outside of their race. Women who are educated, financially successful, and older (if they have waited until this point to look for a serious relationship) are likely to care less about their mates physical appearance aswell.

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this a lot and even met black men who do not like to date black women. They even warn white men away from black women because apparently black women have a tendency to be much more domineering than white women. Whether or not this is true or can even be statisticly quantified I have no idea but it seems to be the perception from my experience. Its not hard to see the possibility of this. Single black mothers are fairly common and while they may often wind up with rebellious and troubled sons, for lack of a father figure, they will be more likely to produce strong independent daughters. Since the average man seems to have difficulty dealing with strong independent women this could be a big reason why many black men choose specificly to date outside of their race.

This last bit is probably not very significant in the over all picture but I am just trying to illustrate the many variables there seem to be in this issue. I don't think that black men are hurting for mates any more than black women, and apparently less so.

 

[vociferous]

Another phenomena mentioned in the article is thenumber of black men who seem to prefer to date outside of their race. I have heard about this a lot and even met black men who do not like to date black women.

I made reference to I study I read about earlier which showed that while black women were, by far, the group most strongly preferential of dating within their own race, black men had no racial/ethnic preference and tended to judge based on looks as the strongest factor (which was also true in the study of men of all races/ethnicities).

So, if you are an educated black woman, and you are trying to find a black man of similar socio-economic achievement as yourself, it will be difficult because.

1) The ratio of black women to black men who are well-educated or have high earning power is very heavily disproportionate.

2) Black men are as likely to choose someone of another race as they are to choose a black woman.

 

[gmax137]

Sorry to interrupt, but I can't help going off-topic (from Post #35)

That is the nerd's dilemma.

I just love that, "the nerd's dilemma..."

Thanks for that one, Lydia

 

[baywax]

Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?

 

[vociferous]

Actually I did want to say, who's business is it whether an African American women dates the blue man group or otherwise? And to what end will any of this information help anyone other than the marketing tycoons on Madison Avenue?

I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.

 

[baywax]

I believe that knowledge, whether it is about the natural, artificial, or social world, is valuable in and unto itself. I find no reason why someone needs to justify the acquisition of knowledge or the discussion of knowledge.

Well when it comes to eavesdropping and meddling in other people's affairs as it appears that this sort of study encourages, I'd say you have, or used to have, some sort of law against it.

 

[vociferous]

Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?

 

[baywax]

Are you seriously suggesting that it is, or should be illegal to conduct social science research?

I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?

 

[vociferous]

I'm suggesting that there needs to be consent forms signed before any research is conducted. If there are none signed, then the action would be illegal and unethical. This would ensure no invasion of privacy was committed. Even the tax dept. makes sure you understand what you're committing to when you fill out a form. Why should the social sciences have any more access to or liberty with people's private information? There might also be a clause that ensures the mental and physical health of the interviewee is such that they understand what they are signing etc...

In the long run, if this study is about the health (mental/physical/economic/societal) of the African American male, why not measure it directly instead of involving their counterparts, the women? Why introduce so many variables to this measurement of the health of the average African American male?

A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.

 

[baywax]

A lot of research is conducted using demographic data, so no consent form is needed. If there is a specific study conducted, as opposed to gathering already available statistical data, then the people who participate are usually given consent forms to sign. One of the advantages of research in the social sciences (as opposed to the natural sciences) is that you can gather a lot of your data just by acquiring it from public or private records, as opposed to having to actually spend the time and money gathering it yourself.

As an archaeologist working with anthropologists I found (in the past) that we used highly intrusive behaviour in order to collect data for the "public record". Graves were plundered and incredible sacred and ancestral sites were annexed for and by the government. The people to whom these sites belonged were briefed, (in the sense of the word) "briefly", but never asked permission in many cases. How the public record is compiled with regard to "whom marries whom and why" is another can of worms. I'm glad to hear that consent is or is thought to be a central issue to the collection of any personal data in your country.

I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors. For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.

And at the same time, you see these people mingling like they're all the same species... human. And some venture to marry one another. Somehow, though, our social sciences division has neglected to use the marriage stats to gauge the health of anyone sub-species.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I am still puzzled by the need to gauge the health of African American males by who they marry. As it has been pointed out, these guys really go for pretty much any woman, like most males (with exceptions). I suppose that, ideally, marrying into your own sub-species is a gesture and ritual of loyalty and acknowledgment to your ancestors.

No one is talking about the health of anyone as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.
There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.

For myself, I live in an extremely multi-cultural society, there's a city 40 minutes from here that is 80 percent inhabited by Canadian Chinese from Hong Kong and Mainland China. On the way there you go through India town where there are 100s of thousands of people who have immigrated from India. Little Italy is on route to all of this and there are Polish, Ukrainian and Croation community centres all along the way. One area is Israeli to the max. There is also a huge contingent of Iranian immigrants in many portions of the city proper.

Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to a lot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?

 

[baywax]

No one is talking about the health of anyone as far as I know. Just their dating practices and more specifically those of black women. Some are wondering what effect that may have on the population of black males in regards to finding mates.

There are many people of different 'races' who feel that their cultures are dying out due to mixed marriage. Some see it as an erosion of their cultural community. And as pointed out in the article of the OP some even think that black males date white women as a symbol of status and that they are selling out their culture. So there may be a social/cultural significance in all of this regardless of whether or not its the sort of issue that effects you personally. Someone somewhere certainly cares about the cost of tea in china.


Its much like this where I live too. Driving home down the main street next to my neighbourhood I see signs in Arabic, Thai, Chinese, and Spanish. Maybe even others that look similar and I just can't distinguish.
So we can see by all of this that people tend to clump together in small (and sometimes large) cultural communities. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people live in areas where there are several people of their same culture or 'race'. Obviously cultural cohesiveness is important to a lot of people so doesn't it make sense for social scientists to study the phenomenon of, and trends in, intercultural dating and marriage?

That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

That's cool. I wonder, though, if it isn't my own xenophobia that flares up when I see the socio/economically well-to-do "race" of whites inspecting and documenting the sexual/cultural/marital preferences of "minority races" (which are only a minority in a relative sense). Wouldn't it be even more efficient to have the people of a "race" study themselves? This would produce data no one could ever have imagined existed.

Is it a distrust of the "other" people that disallows the acceptance of their own studies of their own cultures? Where is the enabling and support for this kind of initiative amongst the "minorities"? There are private social science initiatives in some groups. Marketing is, after all, a social science!

Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?

 

[baywax]

Lol... although some or even most of us discussing this are white what makes you think that the people studying this are white? Don't you think the people most interested, and most aware of there even being such a phenomenon in the first place, would be black?
Perhaps its this male dominated anglo society that has programmed you to not think there are possibly black female sociologists out there making such inquiries?

I will believe that Afro-Americans are accepted as equals when America has an African-American president. Oh, I guess that might happen! In Canada we tend to swing between French Canadian and Anglo Canadian Prime Ministers every 10 years or so. But we have yet to see an Indo-Canadian, Iranian-Canadian or First Nation Canadian take the reigns. We did have one woman as PM by the way, and although women make up half the population, they have struggled as much as a "minority" group to gain influence in law making etc.

I don't think hiring people because of their skin colour or ethnic background is actually ethical. Qualifications really need to be the benchmark. A realtor or a marketer will hire a person because they're Chinese and speak Mandrin. If their qualifications are nil, the marketer loses. So, as you have pointed out, the mix of multi-culturalism and the sheer numbers of people coming to live in North America has upped the chances of there being a qualified diversity of people available to study themselves... and even govern everyone.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSvBCBnulLs [/QUOTE]

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is a black man who works at the UPS store that I frequent. I hadn't had a chance to say anything to him since the election, so when I stopped there the other day, I asked "So, how about that Obama?". He just grinned from ear to ear. That really made my Christmas.

It has been a bit bothersome that I seem to see black people differently since the election. At first I couldn't make sense of it. I'm not racist; at least I don't think I am. Could this be hidden racism at work? Did I have some deep-seated sense of superiority that is now waning? Did I secretly think less of blacks before the election than I do now?

After pondering this quite a bit, I suspect it might be that guilt has been replaced with pride.

 

[pentazoid]

Interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSvBCBnulLs

[/QUOTE]

Thats just sad. These boys will aspire to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc.now just because Obama is now president. Like there were not black people who accomplished great things before obama became president. I don't think there should be a role model for the youth to look up , but if there must be a role model it should be this guyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner, and not a politician who earned the presidential position based on a popularity contest, which the presidential election is. At least Gardner was a homeless person , who had a son and he became wealthy all on his own, based on self-will. Every poor person , regardless of race should look up to this man.

 

[LydiaAC]

Hello Ivan:
Racism is such a complex thing. Nobody can be indifferent about it. Sometimes we think that not being a racist imply not feeling anything concerning race and such a thing is impossible.
I am also very happy about Obama and about blacks being happy about Obama. It would be good for blacks, for whites, for Mexicans, for everybody. It is a sign that the world is in the right way.
I felt something similar in 1994 when EZLN raised the issue of the "Indians" (Native Mexicans, if you want). However, the Obama thing is better. EZLN gave the Indians pride, but it was actually a fake pride, like the self esteem of the self help cassettes that some people listen to.
Obama will give the blacks real pride. He will lead blacks, whites, and it seems he will do it very well. It is impossible not feeling anything about this.
LydiaAC

 

[turbo]

Race is always there. It doesn't always have to matter in ways that people expect, though. I was briefly involved with a black woman from DC in college (1970), and none of my friends gave me a hard time. To the contrary, most were envious because she was really cute. The only person who tried to cause trouble was a HUGE ex-Navy cook (black guy) that also liked her. He was a roadie/door-man for a rival band and we had gotten along well before that. When we had a gap in our schedules, my band would shadow them and vise-versa.

My nephew was brought up in central Maine in a small town that was all-white. He joined the Navy and was stationed in Dan Diego, and there he met a lovely black woman (also career Navy) who had a child from a previous marriage. I first met them when the little girl was 3 and they visited Maine as a family for the first time. I was playing blues at a local tavern, and suddenly there they were in the audience with my sister. As soon as I could take a break, I went to their table and said hi to my sister and nephew and was introduced to his wife. I held out my hands to my new grand-niece and she climbed right into my lap. Racism is taught, not innate. We should always be willing to acknowledge and celebrate our diverse heritages, but never to judge or value others base on those differences.

People should be more like dogs. Dogs are generally willing to accept other dogs and find ways to play, run with them, and just hang out, despite differences in size, appearance, breed, etc. Dogs trained by defective humans occasionally break the mould, but that's the exception.

 

[baywax]

There is a black man who works at the UPS store that I frequent. I hadn't had a chance to say anything to him since the election, so when I stopped there the other day, I asked "So, how about that Obama?". He just grinned from ear to ear. That really made my Christmas.

It has been a bit bothersome that I seem to see black people differently since the election. At first I couldn't make sense of it. I'm not racist; at least I don't think I am. Could this be hidden racism at work? Did I have some deep-seated sense of superiority that is now waning? Did I secretly think less of blacks before the election than I do now?

After pondering this quite a bit, I suspect it might be that guilt has been replaced with pride.

I know from the stand point of a "cracker" (white boy) who has ancestors that were totally afraid of other sub-species and who probably abused them or just shut them out of their lives that I was very curious and felt quite guilty about what my human sub-species was doing to most other human sub-species.

In Canada we have about three or four African-Canadians and they're all white South Africans... surely I jest In the east there are many Jamaicans and Haitians. Out west we have only just begun to see people of African Origin (which is odd to say since we are all of African origin).

Our Governor General is Haitian. She answers directly to the Queen of the Common Wealth. Our Prime Minister has to get permission from her to call an election and for other matters like that.

Its a bit of an oddity that no one came up to me when a white guy was elected PM to say how happy they were for me. Yet, we can single out the African-North Americans and give them big beaming smiles because "one of them" was elected Prez. One of them? One of who?

This is in keeping with stereotyping and so on. We must know that each individual is a far cry from the next. Of course we can intellectually conclude that all people of African Origin now have a target and a role model to work from... in your "White House". Yet, did we see a rise in confidence and aspirations in LITTLE ROCK when one of their own was elected Prez? Did the general IQ level rise or did small businesses grow in number? I don't know... but I was in contact with a number of businesses in Little Rock... and I always complimented them on turning out a great President. However, our accents prevented any further communication!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thats just sad. These boys will aspire to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc.now just because Obama is now president. Like there were not black people who accomplished great things before obama became president. I don't think there should be a role model for the youth to look up , but if there must be a role model it should be this guyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner, and not a politician who earned the presidential position based on a popularity contest, which the presidential election is. At least Gardner was a homeless person , who had a son and he became wealthy all on his own, based on self-will. Every poor person , regardless of race should look up to this man.

Obama had every strike against him but rose to the highest office in the land. And there is much more to be admired in Obama. Also, to say it is sad that he inspires young people and gives them hope, when many are raised in a culture of utter hopelessness, is hard to understand.

The pride mentioned here is not really about race; it is about what Condolesa Rice called the "birth defect" of America, and the damage that defect has done to generations of black Americans. Sure, there have been other role models for young, black Americans, but now, for the first time in our country's history, we all know that someone besides a white man can be President. Clearly, this has had a profound effect on not only black Americans, but people of all colors, including white. If you can't understand that, then consider it an opportunity for intellectual and emotional growth.

The glass ceilings have all been shattered. This is something to he celebrated, not something to be despised. It is America living up to its long held promise that in the eyes of this nation, "all men are created equal".

 

[Monique]

I don't see how this should change your vision of people of color, it tells you something of the country as a whole that the majority is not negatively influenced by the color of Obama. In itself I find it a ridiculous discussion, why should it matter. And what has been the role of people like Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice? Was there controversy when they were appointed Secretary of State?

 

[pentazoid]

Obama had every strike against him but rose to the highest office in the land. And there is much more to be admired in Obama. Also, to say it is sad that he inspires young people and gives them hope, when many are raised in a culture of utter hopelessness, is hard to understand.

The pride mentioned here is not really about race; it is about what Condolesa Rice called the "birth defect" of America, and the damage that defect has done to generations of black Americans. Sure, there have been other role models for young, black Americans, but now, for the first time in our country's history, we all know that someone besides a white man can be President. Clearly, this has had a profound effect on not only black Americans, but people of all colors, including white. If you can't understand that, then consider it an opportunity for intellectual and emotional growth.

The glass ceilings have all been shattered. This is something to he celebrated, not something to be despised. It is America living up to its long held promise that in the eyes of this nation, "all men are created equal".

Saying these kids are raised in a culture of utter hopelessness is a bit of a stretched! This vid. seem to be implying to me, before Obama came along, the only job optioned these kids had work reduced to working at menial jobs at places like McDonald's , janitor etc. There have been prominent black people in high political positions before! Do you honestly believe that , just because there is a black president in the office, blacks who happened to be in dire situations will rise up from there dire situation in rise to something better? That is utter nonsense! When Obama was elected senator in Illinois 4 years ago, the school system in Chicago did not improve! The high high school dropped out rate has not gone down and chicago teachers still earn a high salary even though they seem not to be doing a good job of teaching since there students are not performing well in school . So I know black student performance will not improve just because we have a black person as president. You do not need to have a black president , a women president , a homosexual president or any member of a marginalized group to be president in order to aspire to be something great. People should will within themselves and not rely on others to pull them out of their predicament , whatever their predicament may be.

The glass ceilings were shattered a long long time ago. Even before the civil rights movement, there have been things accomplished by blacks without any outside assistance. The first black person to become a millionaire was around in the early part of the twentieth century, when racism was at a all time high in this countries. I will continue to stay by my original statement I made about the election. Obama did NOTHING more than when a popular contest. Thats it. There is no need for people to cry over him winning the election, or erect images of him in coins, or have small towns have holidays honoring him, especially since we have not yet seen what legacy he will leave for the US presidency. He would get elected into office , and he can turned out to be a really bad president or even worse than our current president;

People are celebrating because we have a black president. People elected him because of his skin color. I want to be at point where race is absolutely not an issue in this country, and sadly we have yet to arrive at that point in time.

 

[HallsofIvy]

I certainly did NOT vote for him because of his skin color. I voted for him mostly because he was NOT a Republican and I will not forgive either Bush or the Republicans for invading Iraq (and wasting both many lives and an outrageous amount of money) because, according to Bush, they had a major stockpile of "weapons of mass distruction" that they were planning to use on the U.S.A. And then admitting that there was no such stockpile!

Do you remember Bush announcing, at the U.N., before the invasion that the U.S.A recognized that it had NO RIGHT to attack another country just to "change the administration" and the we were invading ONLY because of the danger to the United States of those non-existent "weapons of mass distruction". But over the last year, Bush and Condaleeza Rice have been talking about how wonderful it was that we got rid of Saddam!

I think Obama will make a good president- at least he will not base his adminstration on bullying the rest of the world like Bush did.

 

[LydiaAC]

I don't see how this should change your vision of people of color

Thus, if this did change the vision of IvanSeeking of people of color, does it mean that it is something wrong with him?

Human brains are not computers of general purpose. We have feelings and usually these feelings are absurd, does not make sense or are ridiculous. But they are there, and we cannot escape from them.

The most comfortable option is to hide our feelings inside us and only tell people what they want to hear. This politically correct approach never will allow us to discuss the most important issues about our human condition, let alone, solve the problems in our society.

Maybe it is absurd that these boys are inspired by Obama. It is also absurd that students learn more from a teacher whom they love, but it is absolutely true.

Lydia Alvarez

 

[russ_watters]

Obama won neither because of nor in spite of his skin color. He won because he is a Democrat and the incumbent Republican is extremely unpopular. That's it. So his victory says nothing whatsoever about race in the US (except maybe that it isn't as big of an issue as people like to thnk). It is historic because it never happened before, but that is not the same as saying it couldn't have happened before. Same goes for women and Hillary, though it would have been tougher for her since she's not as likeable a person as Obama.

 

[baywax]

When I see a First Nations man or woman running my country, I'll know some boundaries have been pushed or broken. Let these people go (for it, eh?).

 

[pentazoid]

I certainly did NOT vote for him because of his skin color. I voted for him mostly because he was NOT a Republican and I will not forgive either Bush or the Republicans for invading Iraq (and wasting both many lives and an outrageous amount of money) because, according to Bush, they had a major stockpile of "weapons of mass distruction" that they were planning to use on the U.S.A. And then admitting that there was no such stockpile!

Do you remember Bush announcing, at the U.N., before the invasion that the U.S.A recognized that it had NO RIGHT to attack another country just to "change the administration" and the we were invading ONLY because of the danger to the United States of those non-existent "weapons of mass distruction". But over the last year, Bush and Condaleeza Rice have been talking about how wonderful it was that we got rid of Saddam!

I think Obama will make a good president- at least he will not base his adminstration on bullying the rest of the world like Bush did.

I wasn't trying to imply everyone voted for Obama because of his skin color. I was referring to certain segments of the population. It is no that that obviously black people voted for him because of his skin color(since he received 95 percent of the black vote vs. 40 percent o from the general population), even though those reasons aren't the primary reason black people voted for him. The news has focused on obama race in this election. Some political pundits were insinuating to white people if you do not vote for Obama , then you are a racist(at least on my local talk radio show). Of course , everybody else isn't much better because the rest of the population either voted for a democrat or a republican and the status quo stands. Period.

 

[CRGreathouse]

When I see a First Nations man or woman running my country, I'll know some boundaries have been pushed or broken. Let these people go (for it, eh?).

Assuming you're Canadian:
About 2.2% of the population are First Nations. Since the average age for that group is quite young, I don't think it's too far off to guess that for those of Prime Minister age (a 16-year-old isn't likely to be PM, even if it's technically possible for a non-MP PM to be that young) only about 2% are First Nations.

There have been 22 Canadian PMs. If there were no boundaries to be pushed or broken (and demographics were constant -- I don't have the patience for a better analysis!), you'd expect a probability of 0.98^22 ~= 64% that no First Nations PMs would be elected.

 

[baywax]

Assuming you're Canadian:
About 2.2% of the population are First Nations. Since the average age for that group is quite young, I don't think it's too far off to guess that for those of Prime Minister age (a 16-year-old isn't likely to be PM, even if it's technically possible for a non-MP PM to be that young) only about 2% are First Nations.

There have been 22 Canadian PMs. If there were no boundaries to be pushed or broken (and demographics were constant -- I don't have the patience for a better analysis!), you'd expect a probability of 0.98^22 ~= 64% that no First Nations PMs would be elected.

There has yet to be one running in any election other than the Assembly of First Nations. They seemed to "run" the country well for the last 9000 years before we got here. No bail outs, no pollution, no deficit.

But I digress... thank you for taking the time to crunch the numbers. Beating the probability of 0.98^22 ~= 64% that no First Nations PMs would be elected would certainly push an envelope.

In keeping with the thread,

By The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - Willie O'Ree, the first black player to compete in the NHL, is one of 60 people named today to various ranks within the Order of Canada. It was on Jan. 18, 1958 when O'Ree, a native of Fredericton, N.B., played for the Boston Bruins in a game against the Canadiens in Montreal.

O'Ree was playing senior hockey for the Quebec Aces when Boston called him up for a game in the Montreal Forum.

There were no racial slurs hurled at O'Ree that night. Jackie Robinson, the first black major-league baseball player, had been on a team in Montreal so seeing a black man in a major sport was nothing new to sports fans of the city, and O'Ree had previously skated in the city with the Aces.

O'Ree, 73, is now the director of youth development for the NHL's diversity program, which provides access to the sport for children throughout North America. It's a full-time job he took 10 years ago.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/081230/national/order_of_canada

I don't know what type of women O'Ree married. My guess is she's a good old New Brunswickian with an accent that you couldn't cut with a skate blade.

Along with O'Ree, Celine Dion was elevated to Companions of the Order, the highest of the three rankings. (Hopefully that has kept her from singing for a few days)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

WASHINGTON -- Eric Holder, the nation's first black attorney general, said Wednesday the United States was "a nation of cowards" on matters of race, with most Americans avoiding candid discussions of racial issues.

...Race issues continue to be a topic of political discussion, but "we, as average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race." ...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/18/holder-calls-nation-cowards-race-matters/

 

[JakeA]

>>>Obama had every strike against him but rose to the highest office in the land. And there is much more to be admired in Obama. Also, to say it is sad that he inspires young people and gives them hope, when many are raised in a culture of utter hopelessness, is hard to understand.<<<

I doubt that if you put Obama's brain into a white guy named "Barry Olincy," that you would have ever heard of him. I view Obama's meteoric rise in U.S. politics rather cynically, a combination of various strange forms of racism and bigotry as well as a flawed and unfair electoral process.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

doubt that if you put Obama's brain into a white guy named "Barry Olincy," that you would have ever heard of him. I view Obama's meteoric rise in U.S. politics rather cynically, a combination of various strange forms of racism and bigotry as well as a flawed and unfair electoral process.

So then any black man, say like Jesse Jackson, could have won.

I am a huge Obama fan but have never seen another black candidate that I would support for President. I don't believe that I have ever voted for any black candidate before, for any office.

Frankly, your position is ludicrous. Three years ago a fortune could have been made by betting that the next President would be a black man named Hussein.

 

[nottheone]

Slightly off topic but why does everyone refer to Obama as being black? He is half white, why don't we refer to him as being white? Racism?

Since there are more black women on campus than black men it's only natural that more will go out with white men. If there were more black men than white men on campus we would see more white women with black men (took me hours to figure this out). Also, stretching the logic here, they just MIGHT be seeking some intellectual compatibility hard as that is to believe. Still , there will always be some women who like em big and dumb as a friend of mine (who could have been a Playboy centerfold) once told me.

For myself, if I had a choice between two equally attractive women, I would choose the black one in a heartbeat. Unfortunately that hasn't happened.

 

[334dave]

i have no comments on interracial / intersocial marriage
happyness and love don't come in the same form for every one
the largest growing social group is grandparents of 'mixed' kids
there is no reason or social worthyness in trying to fig it out..
on the press... humm ready for flame?

1st i think obama will do a good job ..
but as to how he got there..it made me sick...why?
he went to that radical preacher's church to garner political influence..
he won dem congressional ticket as unopposed
then a popular radical woman wanted to be the dem candidate
he would not with draw so she ran as independent
he could not win that congressional seat on dem ticket as he was not "black" enough
for the chi town district he lived in.. the radical talk woman won
he won in state wide with chi town machine support and white voters in so ill..
from day one inside the belt way dem leaders told him what to do so as to maintain
electability.. ie: don't get in hot button issues!

after he was pushed to the for front suddenly evey
black person spokesperson wanted to get out the vote for him..
many states had many tho's of never before bothering to vote blacks reg to vote

th black leaders conducted the largest turn out the
black vote campaign ever in US history.
he was elected by a the most raceiset voting i have ever heard of in any free country
even black leaders did not like him personally as evidenced by open mike comments

now , in MY personal opinion from watching this social race event
blacks in the usa are the most raciest voting group i have ever heard of!
they voted race regardless of political leanings!
had a WASP group conducted a get out the vote with but a small fraction of the
racest message i recall hearing in black news reports and black leaders used
there would have been accusations of KKK rebirth with a hue and cry
such as has not never heard after king was in the tent city..

king said his dream was to see a little girl judged on her character
not the color of her skin
every black person that voted for the current pres on race has done a
great discredit to kings memory..shame on you..

 

[Ivan Seeking]

King said his dream was to see a little girl judged on her character. not the color of her skin. Every black person that voted for the current pres on race has done a great discredit to kings memory..shame on you..

When people vote for a President, they vote for the person that best represents them. Is it really so hard to understand how blacks would relate to Obama? Beyond that, since the Civil Rights movement, blacks have always swung heavily for the Democrats. Only briefly did they begin to show a little more support for the Republicans, in 2000 and 2004, but due to the last eight years, the Republicans lost ground with almost every demographic, not just blacks.

Consider that McCain comes from a State that refused to recognize MLK holiday. He also opposed the holiday.

Most glaringly, McCain as a young congressman in 1983 voted against a federal holiday for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/the-complicated.html

Is it any wonder that blacks may not relate to McCain?

 

[LydiaAC]

I feel very guilty now. Years ago I tried to get some "scientific" explanation to some of the facts people claimed about differences between white and black people.
I argued something about black people being genetically selected by their endurance of adversity.
The problem is that, when someone claimed that black people had more children out of wedlock, I accepted that as a fact.
I recently learned about the large number of white people who give their babies in adoption for no other reason that they were born out of wedlock. Black people had never been so worried about "keeping appearances" so they usually keep their babies, in any circumstance.
Accusing black people of being particularly sexually promiscuous is totally unfair: they would be able to reply that white people is particularly hypocritical.
How many other information on which we are basing our debate is as wrong as this? I risked to be offensive to black people, ignoring a very important piece of information.
Maybe the way we manage this kind of things is wrong. Maybe the basic assumption of "there are not differences" although unfalsifiable, is the best approximation.

 

[WhoWee]

Probably a doomed thread, I thought this was a very striking story.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/personal/08/06/interracial.dating.ap/index.html

IMO there is little doubt about it: Generally speaking, black men are in trouble, even in the view of black women, which is ironic when we consider that Obama is the first black man who could be elected to the highest office in the land. Even though racial barriers are falling, on the average, black men are struggling as much as ever.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm

This thread lasted longer than you thought Ivan.

I think courtship boils down to location and availability. If two people who might not typically consider the other a potential date get to know one another due to close proximity or association - sparks might fly.

 

[TheodoreLogan]

every black person that voted for the current pres on race has done a great discredit to kings memory..shame on you..

While Obama may not be the best representation of a certain person's political beliefs, you do have to except the importance of electing the first black president. Dr. King had a dream but you must take steps to reach that dream. Only once interracial marraige and black presidents become 'no big deal' are we going to be at the point where we can judge a little girl on her character not the color of her skin. I think we have a ways to go, but we are getting there. To say a black person has done a great discredit to King's memory by voting for a black president, and shame on them? Shame on them? Come on, it takes steps to get to that dream. If that's what it takes, so be it. Not to say that Obama isn't a qualified candidate. If you are a far right black man, it doesn't make much sense. If you are on the fence, and you choose a president based on his color, well, if that's what it takes to move the country in a direction that is a positive one, as far as race relations, I think that it is a good choice. I think that more black women with white men has to do with a more accepting culture. Rather than black men being considered by black women to be more likely to be uneducated criminals and thus less acceptable mates compared to white men. That really is a horrible suggestion if you ask me.

 

[WhoWee]

I think that more black women with white men has to do with a more accepting culture. Rather than black men being considered by black women to be more likely to be uneducated criminals and thus less acceptable mates compared to white men. That really is a horrible suggestion if you ask me.

Welcome to PF TheodoreLogan.

A changing culture is probably a factor. However, I think it has to do more with basic things like common interests, personality, and proximity. Close friendships formed in college or in the workplace often turn romantic.

A clear exception would be someone who specifically searches for another person on-line - different conversation.

 

[TheodoreLogan]

Welcome to PF TheodoreLogan.QUOTE]

Thanks

A changing culture is probably a factor. However, I think it has to do more with basic things like common interests, personality, and proximity. Close friendships formed in college or in the workplace often turn romantic.

Exactly, once blacks and whites are fully culturally integrated, there will be no boundary to what color your mate is. It just so happens that right now, black people and white people are not so integrated, and so we tend to stick with the culture that surrounds us. If every black man/woman has a white family member or vice versa, the cultural barriers will come down. This obviously takes time. The more 'mixing' that takes place in families will most likely lead to a more culturally 'mixed' generation of people. This will most likely lead to more interracial relationships/families. IMO people don't really change all that much, it is just that people die and so do there ideals and values, it is the next generation that truly makes the change. So as more generations continue to 'mix' so will the cultures until racism is no longer an issue. In my opinion.

 

[planck]

Actually, I remember reading a related article about this so-called new phenomenon of black women dating white men. And in all reality, it's really not a new phenomenon. It was more commonplace in the 18th/19th century in America. Then, I believe after reconstruction-emancipation, it begin to dissipate. And now, it's beginning to make a comeback, despite the taboos that may accompany it. The taboos being that a white man, with his black female partner inferred a master/slave relationship.

But what truly is a new phenomenon is the black male/white women pairing. Unlike, white male-black female pairings, this one was very taboo.

That's all I can remember from the piece. I can't recall the article very well. It was interesting though.