Questioning Bush & Blair's Relationship with God

[the number 42]

Perhaps because it is Sunday, I have been thinking a bit about the relationship between Bush and God. It seems accepted that 9/11 seems to have triggered something: "Those close to Mr Bush say that day he discovered his life's mission. He became convinced that God was calling him to engage the forces of evil in battle"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2921345.stm

Not everyone is convinced that the Bush's claims to represent goodness are very reliable:
"Messianic, triumphalist and arrogant," is how Spain's El Periodico assesses the tone of Mr Bush's [2nd inaugural] speech. The paper says Mr Bush's "abuse" of the word "freedom" and "his invoking of God's will" are a "bad omen" in view of "how such ideas have been manipulated and applied in relation to Iraq".
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/low/world/europe/4193723.stm

"In fact, nearly all the mainline churches in America oppose this war [invasion of Iraq], including Mr Bush's own church, the United Methodists" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2921345.stm

Blair - himself a devout Christian - doesn't escape criticism either. At the funeral last July of a Scottish soldier killed by a roadside bomb in Iraq, the minister said:
"I want to believe that if there is a God in heaven then there will be justice because I want someone to pay for Gordon's death. And only God may judge who is ultimately responsible. ...If I were to point them out I would say to President George Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair I have only three words of admonishment. ...And those three words are 'shame on you'."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3871957.stm

The above are just a few thoughts and quotes, but does anyone else think that the world would be a lot safer if GWB was a little less unshakable in his faith in his actions?

 

[polyb]

I think the 'religion' card is played to strategic political ends and the whole thing is an ad hominem ploy. These people have no regard for anything except there own little hides. Now as a means of reading between the lines you can pick out their intents and ambitions. Here is an article that is creepy and disturbing by it's use of GAWD! From the Washington Times:

'U.S. should be open to God's priorities'

If they can dictate GAWD's priorities then they can dictate policy with that segment of the population that falls for this garbage. The sick part is if Jr. is the evangelical he portray's himself to be, then we are in for 'the end times'. Makes one wonder what they really are up to!

 

[Polly]

*whispers:42, you have exceed your PM storage, I can't pm you*

 

[the number 42]

Do you think maybe Junior is just playing the 'God-fevered simpleton weilding a sharpened crucifix' so that Iran etc will back down because they think him capable of anything? That would take cunning, and he probably has some of that.

 

[polyb]

Do you think maybe Junior is just playing the 'God-fevered simpleton weilding a sharpened crucifix' so that Iran etc will back down because they think him capable of anything? That would take cunning, and he probably has some of that.

Sure would be, but I think that the plan for the Caspian Sea oil pipeline is a done deal and they are just looking for the right time and excuse to implement the plans of the special interest groups that pay their checks. Never underestimate the monetary motive and factor in any politics, it seems to superceed all else! Everything else is just for show! :yuck:

 

[the number 42]

I see what you mean. But playing to the Christian gallery for profit is surely a dangerous tactic when playing war games with the Islamic countries of the world. Couldn't he appeal to the Christian wallet on some other level e.g. keep the 'freedom' bit, but drop the 'mission from holy-moley' routine?

 

[Curious3141]

The problem is that Bush is looking more and more like a crazed religious fanatic, the same sort (but differently dyed) that he's ostensibly trying to defeat. There have been too many rumors and whispers circulating about his private behavior for me to be comfortably assured that he's a 100 % sane and rational. I think he really does have a messianic complex and people like that are BAD NEWS.

 

[the number 42]

Agreed. But can you be sane & rational and have a messianic complex? Or is it that he is rational in private but Rasputin in public?

 

[Curious3141]

Or is it that he is rational in private but Rasputin in public?

*That* would be OK, because I understand that politicians have to pander to their public in their appearances. But the problem is that by many accounts, Bush actually tempers/controls his crazy religious utterances in public, and his private persona is far scarier.

This guy is a nut. The last place he should be is leading the most powerful country in the world...and for a second term !

 

[Burnsys]

Some Quotes:

I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president.
-- George W. Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, ç
"How George W. Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000

I believe God did create the world. And I think we're finding out more and more and more as to how it actually happened.
-- George W. Bush, interview, U.S. News, "George W. Bush: Running on his faith," December 6, 1999

Our priorities is our faith.
-- George W. Bush, Greensboro, North Carolina, October. 10, 2000, quoted from Jacob Weinberg, "The Complete Bushisms"

Our new faith-based laws have removed government as a roadblock to people of faith who hear the call.
-- George W. Bush, quoted from Aaron Latham, "How George W. Found God," George Magazine, September, 2000

"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear."—Los Angeles, Calif., March 3, 2004 (Thanks to Tanny Bear.)

 

[the number 42]

...by many accounts, Bush actually tempers/controls his crazy religious utterances in public, and his private persona is far scarier.

I found this stuff in the Washington Post (Sep 16th 2004):

"...despite the centrality of Bush's faith to his presidency, he has revealed only the barest outline of his beliefs, leaving others to sift through the clues and make assumptions about where he stands".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15.html

"In 2000, he suggested that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools since "religion has been around a lot longer than Darwinism." But he avoided stating his choice between the two positions. "I believe God did create the world. And I think we're finding out more and more and more as to how it actually happened," he told U.S. News & World Report".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15_2.html

But this is a classic: "Bush himself said in a 2000 interview with Beliefnet.com, a religion Web site: "To be frank with you, I am not all that comfortable describing my faith, because in the political world, there are a lot of people who say, 'Vote for me, I'm more religious than my opponent,' " he said. "And those kind of folks make me a little nervous."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15_3.html
Isn't he more religious than his opponents, and therefore describing himself? How much more nervous could he possibly make me? What beliefs is he holding back? :uhh:

I think this guy has hit the nail on the head:
"It's a good thing, and a normal thing, for religious people to have a sense of calling as a pastor or a teacher or a journalist or a politician. But I think this goes farther," Wallis [editor of Sojourners] said. "It's almost a sense of divine appointment for this president and this war on terrorism. . . . When it comes out as 'They're evil and we're good,' and 'If you're not with us on all issues, then you're with the evildoers,' I think it's bad foreign policy and dangerous theology."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15_4.html

 

[the number 42]

I believe God did create the world. And I think we're finding out more and more and more as to how it actually happened.
-- George W. Bush, interview, U.S. News, "George W. Bush: Running on his faith," December 6, 1999

Right. And evolution had nothing to do with it.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimpanzee.htm

 

[Curious3141]

Right. And evolution had nothing to do with it.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushchimpanzee.htm

PREP THE NOBEL COMMITTEE ! The ultimate transitional form (read : the missing link) has at long last been definitively identified ! :rofl:

 

[Polly]

http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html suggests that Bush the less than right thinking man shows most of the tell tale signs of a "dry drunk" , although I would add Christianity as an authoritarian religion also plays a part in his "complex". I have some sympathy for him after reading the article.

"Dry drunk is a slang term used by members and supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous and substance abuse counselors to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking, one who is dry, but whose thinking is clouded. Such an individual is said to be dry but not truly sober. Such an individual tends to go to extremes.

...

"Dry drunk" traits consist of:

Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity
Grandiose behavior
A rigid, judgmental outlook
Impatience
Childish behavior
Irresponsible behavior
Irrational rationalization
Projection
Overreaction

Clearly, George W. Bush has all these traits except exaggerated self importance.

...there are some indications of paranoia in statements such as the following: "We must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends." The trait of projection is evidenced here as well, projection of the fact that we are ready to attack onto another nation which may not be so inclined.

Bush's rigid, judgmental outlook comes across in virtually all his speeches. To fight evil, Bush is ready to take on the world, in almost a Biblical sense. Consider his statement with reference to Israel: "Look my job isn't to try to nuance. I think moral clarity is important... this is evil versus good."

Bush's tendency to dichotomize reality is not on the Internet list above, but it should be, as this tendency to polarize is symptomatic of the classic addictive thinking pattern. I describe this thinking distortion in Addiction Treatment: A Strengths Perspective as either/or reasoning-- "either you are with us or against us." Oddly, Bush used those very words in his dealings with other nations. All-or-nothing thinking is a related mode of thinking commonly found in newly recovering alcoholics/addicts. Such a worldview traps people in a pattern of destructive behavior.

Obsessive thought patterns are also pronounced in persons prone to addiction. There are organic reasons for this due to brain chemistry irregularities; messages in one part of the brain become stuck there. This leads to maddening repetition of thoughts. President Bush seems unduly focused on getting revenge on Saddam Hussein ("he tried to kill my Dad") leading the country and the world into war, accordingly.

Grandiosity enters the picture as well. What Bush is proposing to Congress is not the right to attack on one country but a total shift in military policy: America would now have the right to take military action before the adversary even has the capacity to attack...I believe the explanation goes deeper than oil, that Bush's logic is being given too much credit; I believe his obsession is far more visceral.

...Senator William Fulbright, in his popular bestseller of the 1960s, The Arrogance of Power, masterfully described the essence of power-hungry politics as the pursuit of power; this he conceived as an end in itself. "The causes and consequences of war may have more to do with pathology than with politics," he wrote, "more to do with irrational pressures of pride and pain than with rational calculation of advantage and profit."

Another "dry drunk" trait is impatience. Bush is far from a patient man: "If we wait for threats to fully materialize," he said in a speech he gave at West Point, "we will have waited too long." Significantly, Bush only waited for the United Nations and for Congress to take up the matter of Iraq's disarmament with extreme reluctance.

Alan Bisbort argues that Bush possesses the characteristics of the "dry drunk" in terms of: his incoherence while speaking away from the script; his irritability with anyone (for example, Germany's Schröder) who dares disagree with him; and his dangerous obsessing about only one thing (Iraq) to the exclusion of all other things.

In short, George W. Bush seems to possesses the traits characteristic of addictive persons who still have the thought patterns that accompany substance abuse. If we consult the latest scientific findings, we will discover that scientists can now observe changes that occur in the brain as a result of heavy alcohol and other drug abuse. Some of these changes may be permanent. Except in extreme cases, however, these cognitive impairments would not be obvious to most observers.

...

Bush drank heavily for over 20 years until he made the decision to abstain at age 40. About this time he became a "born again Christian," going as usual from one extreme to the other. During an Oprah interview, Bush acknowledged that his wife had told him he needed to think about what he was doing. When asked in another interview about his reported drug use, he answered honestly, "I'm not going to talk about what I did 20 to 30 years ago."

...

To summarize, George W. Bush manifests all the classic patterns of what alcoholics in recovery call "the dry drunk." His behavior is consistent with barely noticeable but meaningful brain damage brought on by years of heavy drinking and possible cocaine use. All the classic patterns of addictive thinking ...are here:

the tendency to go to extremes (leading America into a massive 100 billion dollar strike-first war);

a "kill or be killed mentality;" the tunnel vision;
"I" as opposed to "we" thinking;
the black and white polarized thought processes (good versus evil, all or nothing thinking).
His drive to finish his father's battles is of no small significance, psychologically.
If the public (and politicians) could only see what Fulbright noted as the pathology in the politics. One day, sadly, they will."

 

[the number 42]

[
"Dry drunk" traits consist of:

Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity
Grandiose behavior
A rigid, judgmental outlook
Impatience
Childish behavior
Irresponsible behavior
Irrational rationalization
Projection
Overreaction

Clearly, George W. Bush has all these traits except exaggerated self importance.

:rofl: Funny. But as for the rest of it, very disturbing indeed. I was wondering how credible the source of this is, but Katherine van Wormer is Professor of Social Work at the University of Northern Iowa, so she ain't no fool. I'm reminded of the concerns over Reagan's forgetfulness in his last years in office. People who said he was going senile were put down, but it turned out he was showing the early signs of Alzheimer's.

Well, I'm glad God is working through Junior, because if it was Junior working through Junior we'd all be in serious trouble.

 

[the number 42]

"According to Iran's constitution, its supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei... holds the majority of the power. Elected leaders, including President Mohammad Khatami and members of parliament, hold much less authority".
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iran/structure.html

Say there was reform in Iraq so that the only elected leaders had political control, as in the West. And say the people voted for the Ayatollah. Wouldn't having a religious leader at the helm with total political control offer even less to people who want the country run on a secular (or humanist) non-religious grounds?

 

[Polly]

Say there was reform in Iraq so that the only elected leaders had political control, as in the West. And say the people voted for the Ayatollah. Wouldn't having a religious leader at the helm with total political control offer even less to people who want the country run on a secular (or humanist) non-religious grounds?

:grumpy: Hate to admit it but you are sharp . http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/020805I.shtml is an echo of your view:

In his State of the Union address, Bush denounced Iran as "the world's primary state sponsor of terrorism." At the same time, he celebrated an Iraqi election that handed power to Shiite ayatollahs who were sponsored for decades by their co-religionists in Iran and who share much of Tehran's vision of religion and politics. Does this make sense to anybody outside of the White House?

The final returns from the Iraqi election are not in, but it seems clear that the slate headed by the Iranian-backed Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution is going to have a clear majority in the new constitutional assembly.

 

[loseyourname]

Say there was reform in Iraq so that the only elected leaders had political control, as in the West. And say the people voted for the Ayatollah. Wouldn't having a religious leader at the helm with total political control offer even less to people who want the country run on a secular (or humanist) non-religious grounds?

Elected leaders in a democracy are not supposed to have "total political control," not if the consitution is set up properly. Furthermore, Saddam was not deposed to install a secular regime. Saddam's already was a secular regime.

 

[the number 42]

Elected leaders in a democracy are not supposed to have "total political control," not if the consitution is set up properly. Furthermore, Saddam was not deposed to install a secular regime. Saddam's already was a secular regime.

Sorry everyone, I meant Iran, not Iraq. Would you all mind reading my post again with this in mind? (Sorry).

 

[the number 42]

Hate to admit it but you are sharp

I think I've just proved I'm about as sharp as Junior's plumbs

 

[the number 42]

On a different note, wow loseyourname, is that Ian Curtis? I was just watching a video of Joy Division the other day. I hate it when cool people - a rarity - die young, its such a waste.

In an attempt to make this relevant to this thread, I wonder if a little religious belief might have prevented Curtis taking his life? Perhaps there's a curvilinear relationship between religiosity and tangible benefits to people and society.

 

[loseyourname]

On a different note, wow loseyourname, is that Ian Curtis? I was just watching a video of Joy Division the other day. I hate it when cool people - a rarity - die young, its such a waste.

In an attempt to make this relevant to this thread, I wonder if a little religious belief might have prevented Curtis taking his life? Perhaps there's a curvilinear relationship between religiosity and tangible benefits to people and society.

Yes it is Ian Curtis (I got tired of people thinking I'm a woman because of my avatar and hitting on me through PMs). No one here in the states seems to listen to Joy Division; it's nice to know of someone else that actually listens to them. I have no idea what religion would have done to a man that had such an obviously bleak outlook and depressive personality to begin with. I suppose the belief that the supreme creator of the universe cares about you and has your back can be comforting when little else seems to be in your favor.

Oh, and re-reading your post knowing you're talking about Iran makes way more sense.

 

[the number 42]

I have no idea what religion would have done to a man that had such an obviously bleak outlook and depressive personality to begin with. I suppose the belief that the supreme creator of the universe cares about you and has your back can be comforting when little else seems to be in your favor.

This is from the abstract of a recent review of the lit on religion and depression:
"People from some religious affiliations appear to have an elevated risk for depressive symptoms and depressive disorder"
I wonder which ones? I would be great to see a league table of the most and least depressing faiths.
"...people with no religious affiliation are at an elevated risk in comparison with people who are religiously affiliated. People with high levels of general religious involvement, organizational religious involvement, religious salience, and intrinsic religious motivation are at reduced risk for depressive symptoms and depressive disorders. Private religious activity and particular religious beliefs appear to bear no reliable relationship with depression [This seems to contradict the first statement, unless 'beliefs' are different to 'affiliations']. People with high levels of extrinsic religious motivation are at increased risk for depressive symptoms. Although these associations tend to be consistent, they are modest and are substantially reduced in multivariate research. Longitudinal research is sparse, but suggests that some forms of religious involvement might exert a protective effect against the incidence and persistence of depressive symptoms or disorders".
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search/expand?pub=infobike://aap/twr/1999/ 00000002/00000002/art00008

Going by the above (though it sounds a little shakey) perhaps Curtis' best chance in terms of religion would have been to get into "high levels of general religious involvement, organizational religious involvement, religious salience and intrinsic religious motivation", i.e. get heavily involved in a baptist choir for the sheer joy it gives him. Hmmm, would we still have listened to his music? Probably not, but at least he'd still be alive today, banging a tamborine and annoying strangers outside Manchester Picadilly central station.

Again, dragging all of this back to the point, I would imagine that Bush has both intrinsic (religion = not drinking) and extrinsic (pressure to stay sober) motivations for his religious beliefs. I doubt the guy is very prone to depression, but a healthy dose of introspection - which often comes with depression - might do him a world of good.

 

[Polly]

I think I've just proved I'm about as sharp as Junior's plumbs

That's alright honey, we all have our share of ma-yau-yau days (kiss kiss).

 

[the number 42]

That's alright honey, we all have our share of ma-yau-yau days (kiss kiss).

Yeah, but how often do you feel as sharp as Junior's doo-dahs?

 

[Polly]

Being a daff that I am, I ain't quite sure what you mena.

:tongue2:

oooooo, dis lauf, dus ideed hiten de senses and charpen de mime.



Salt and pepper prawns, steamed fish, choy sum and sweet and sour pork for tonight, hon, will it be alright?

 

[the number 42]

Salt and pepper prawns, steamed fish, choy sum and sweet and sour pork for tonight, hon, will it be alright?

Sounds great, sweetie. Are you saying that's what Bush and God eat when they meet? I thought it would be something more traditional like steak & manna.

 

[SOS2008]

http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html suggests that Bush the less than right thinking man shows most of the tell tale signs of a "dry drunk" , although I would add Christianity as an authoritarian religion also plays a part in his "complex". I have some sympathy for him after reading the article."

There are other similar lists, such as the signs of fascism, which also fits quite well. I opt for the "rally around the flag" theory to distract away from real issues of poor performance. This administration has effectively used a two-pronged fascist "freedom and liberty" tactic along with the religious "values" (not to be confused with morals) tactic. The appeal is to the rednecks--I mean red state "bring it on" types, AND to the self-righteous fundamentalists who will murder doctors at abortion clinics to accomplish God's work.

Of course we are talking about a man who wears the hat and boots and talks with a twang, but a real cowboy he is not.

 

[SOS2008]

...what Bush and God eat when they meet? I thought it would be something more traditional like steak & manna.

The manna will be moldy for the false prophet and his self-righteous supporters. In the meantime, I have had a come-to-Jesus, and pray each day for impeachment, and I'm studying the Bible so I can get a job in the new Christian Republic of America. Thanks for the food for thought--I needed a good laugh! :rofl:

 

[the number 42]

Having just seen SOS2008's thread on the neocons, I never realized these guys were so up to their necks in religious extremism.
"The script is in the bible , the Apocalypse of St John the Apostle . Chapter 18 The fall of Babylon (about 100 miles from Baghdad) and Chapter 19 ~ Enter the Divine Warrior ~ " who is called faithful and true, and with justice he wages war... and from his mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which to smite the nations and he will rule them with a rod of iron ."
And guess who sees himself as the Divine Warrior."
http://www.opednews.com/roland_052804_who_bush_answers_to.htm

Does anybody know if GWB actually believes any of this stuff himself? I find it easier to believe that he might let people think he does, in order to get the Christian fundamentalist vote. But is he on record anywhere endorsing these beliefs? He's not bright, but I see him as too wiley for all that 'end times' stuff.

 

[misskitty]

Saddam Hussein reminds me of Adolf Hitler.

 

[dextercioby]

I didn't know you met them both...How old are you...?

Daniel.

 

[misskitty]

My age has no relevence here. I never said I met both of them. I said Hussein reminds me of Hitler because I have studied WWII extensively. Hussein's actions remind me of those Hitler made in the mid-1900's.

 

[dextercioby]

Sorry.I guess it was a bad joke...

Daniel.

 

[misskitty]

No, I miss intrepreted what your meaning was, my bad. I'm sorry.

Anyway. The one thing that really caught my attention about Hussein being similar in character to Hitler was the people couldn't spea out against the government. If they did, they would have been killed. Also, the mass killings of the nationals was like a modern day reminder of the genocide during the second world war.