Calculate lift from pressure distribution

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of lift from pressure distribution on an airfoil, addressing theoretical and mathematical aspects of lift generation, pressure differentials, and the relevance of airfoil geometry. Participants explore how pressure distribution relates to lift and drag calculations, and the implications of surface orientation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a calculation for lift based on pressure differentials and expresses confusion about the orientation of forces acting on the airfoil surfaces.
  • Another participant clarifies that the pressure discussed is a differential pressure, which can be negative, and questions the necessity of airfoil geometry for lift calculations if pressure distribution is known.
  • Some participants argue that while the shape of the airfoil is relevant for creating pressure distribution, it may not be necessary for calculating lift if the pressure distribution is provided.
  • There is a correction made regarding the need for pressure distribution, surface area, and surface orientation to accurately calculate forces.
  • Participants discuss the concept of surface orientation, defining it as the direction of the normal vector at a point on the surface, which affects the force due to pressure.
  • Questions arise about the calculation of forces based on pressure distribution, particularly regarding the treatment of pressure acting on the airfoil surfaces and the implications of surface angles.
  • One participant suggests that pressure forces can be treated as acting vertically on a flat surface for simplification, while another points out the importance of understanding how pressure distribution changes with angle of attack.
  • Resources are requested for further learning about lift calculations and pressure distribution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance of airfoil geometry in lift calculations, with some asserting it is unnecessary if pressure distribution is known, while others argue that geometry is essential. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of pressure forces and their application in calculations.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions about surface angles and the treatment of pressure forces, which may affect the accuracy of lift calculations. The dependence on specific definitions of pressure and surface orientation is also noted.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, and the mathematical modeling of lift and drag forces on airfoils.

Jurgen M
pressure.jpg.jpg

v=50m/s
βˆ†Pg= -981Pa
βˆ†π‘π‘‘ =490Pa
c=1m
𝜌 = 1,225 kg m3

1639064750633.png

1639064783205.png

𝐹3 = ∫ βˆ†π‘3 βˆ™ 1 βˆ™ 𝑑π‘₯ 𝑐 2 0 = βˆ†π‘π‘” ∫ 2βˆ†π‘π‘‘ 𝑐 π‘₯𝑑π‘₯ 𝑐 2 0 = 2βˆ†π‘π‘‘ 𝑐 βˆ™ ( π‘₯ 2 2 ) c⁄2 | 0 = 2βˆ†π‘π‘‘ 𝑐 βˆ™ 𝑐 2 4 βˆ™ 2 = βˆ†π‘π‘‘ βˆ™ 𝑐 4 = 490,5 βˆ™ 1 4 = 122,625 N
1639064840735.png
1639064860067.png


Lift per unit of span = (F1) + (F2) +F3 + F4= 490.5+245.25+122,25+122,625=981N :confused:
Pressure push at all surfaces on airfoil,just push with less force on upper surface then lower surface, so F1 and F2 must has opposite direction than F3 ,F4.. so why they sum all forces with absolute values like pressure at upper surface pulling...?? pressure can not pull,only push :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Dont understand final lift math and force orientation..
 

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It's not a pressure, but a ##\Delta p##, which is the pressure minus some baseline pressure. That can be negative.
 
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FactChecker said:
It's not a pressure, but a ##\Delta p##, which is the pressure minus some baseline pressure. That can be negative.
If I know pressure distribution around airfoil, then geometry/shape/inclination of airfoil isn't necessary/relevant for calculate lift/drag?
 
Jurgen M said:
If I know pressure distribution around airfoil, then geometry/shape/inclination of airfoil isn't necessary/relevant for calculate lift/drag?
The shape is relevant since it created the pressure distribution, but it is no longer necessary because the pressure distribution gives us all we need to know about the shape.
CORRECTION EDIT: The pressure distribution, surface area, and surface orientation are all needed to calculate the forces.
 
Last edited:
FactChecker said:
The shape is relevant since it created the pressure distribution, but it is no longer necessary because the pressure distribution gives us all we need to know about the shape.
Same pressure distribution can have different airfoil shapes or inclination,so we don't know what is airfoil shape/angle from only pressure distribution.
Can you post some courses or videos or articles with examples of this lift calculation where I can learn better this topic?
 
Jurgen M said:
Same pressure distribution can have different airfoil shapes or inclination,so we don't know what is airfoil shape/angle from only pressure distribution.
Can you post some courses or videos or articles with examples of this lift calculation where I can learn better this topic?
I stand corrected. The pressure distribution, surface area, and surface orientation are all needed to calculate the forces.
 
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FactChecker said:
I stand corrected. The pressure distribution, surface area, and surface orientation are all needed to calculate the forces.
What is surface orientation?
 
Jurgen M said:
What is surface orientation?
It is the direction the surface is tilted toward at that (infinitesimal) position. It is usually specified by the direction of the vector normal to the surface at that point. That normal vector is handy in cases like this because it is the direction of the force due to the pressure, ignoring the surface drag.
 
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pressure.jpg.jpg
calculate F3 from average pressure..

1639158815524.png

1639158688194.png

or with integral

1639158734251.png

1639158757049.png
Why they calculate F3 like pressure distribution "triangle" act at bottom airfoil surface from 0 to C/2?
If I see there is no pressure distribution at bottom surface from 0 to X, pressure distribution is drawn from X to C/2
 
  • #10
Jurgen M said:
Why they calculate F3 like pressure distribution "triangle" act at bottom airfoil surface from 0 to C/2?
If I see there is no pressure distribution at bottom surface from 0 to X, pressure distribution is drawn from X to C/2
Since there are no surface angles provided, it looks to me like all of the pressures are vertical components only (simplified problem). So while there are certainly positive pressures on the airfoil from 0-X, the orientation of the airfoil surface makes the vertical component negligible.
 
  • #11
russ_watters said:
Since there are no surface angles provided, it looks to me like all of the pressures are vertical components only (simplified problem). So while there are certainly positive pressures on the airfoil from 0-X, the orientation of the airfoil surface makes the vertical component negligible.
The pressure plot is based at the zero line not the lower wing surface, I made mistake because I look at surface..

What surface angle you mean?
 
  • #12
You don't need the surface angle. You can just assume it's all acting perpendicular but acting on the projected area rather than the true area. Sure, the actual pressure force acts along the surface normal, but the vertical component is the same proportion of the total force as the projected horizontal area is of the total area, so all the angle dependence cancels out. For the calculation, you can just treat all of those as if they're acting vertically on a flat horizontal plate and you'll get the correct answer.
 
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  • #13
Jurgen M said:
...
Can you post some courses or videos or articles with examples of this lift calculation where I can learn better this topic?
Consider that for same airfoil, the patterns of pressure distribution will change as AOA changes.
Also, high pressure differentials can’t be sustained close to the wing tips because some mass of air will naturally flow span-wise from areas of higher pressure to areas of lower pressure.

Please, see:
https://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/velocitydistributions.htm

https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1385606&d=1375503690

πŸ™‚
 

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