Can Martial Artists Sense Danger Before It Happens?

[cursa]

Hi everyone. I've heard that martial artists can somehow foresee an event before it actually happens. There is a test in which the student kneels, and the teacher behind him strikes with a sword, and so the student must avoid the strike by rolling. According to the people that have passed this test, it is impossible to feel the movement of the sword with the ordinary senses because of the great speed, but they rather "sense" a great fear of being killed and then they react. Do you have any insights on how this can be done? If there is no time for them to react, how can they "know" that they have to roll over? In terms of physics, how can one interact with an environment so quickly? Thanks in advance.

 

[Gold Barz]

Maybe the people who didnt pass the test cannot say otherwise because they are dead?

 

[Pengwuino]

Maybe the people who didnt pass the test cannot say otherwise because they are dead?

ahahahah that's what i was about to say

 

[cursa]

jejeje Actually the people who don't pass the test are not dead, just get a bruise on the shoulder or the head because it is a wooden sword called "shinai".

 

[Pengwuino]

aha dang, there goes the simple answer!

 

[mezeb40]

http://www.realultimatepower.net

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hi everyone. I've heard that martial artists can somehow foresee an event before it actually happens. There is a test in which the student kneels, and the teacher behind him strikes with a sword, and so the student must avoid the strike by rolling. According to the people that have passed this test, it is impossible to feel the movement of the sword with the ordinary senses because of the great speed, but they rather "sense" a great fear of being killed and then they react. Do you have any insights on how this can be done? If there is no time for them to react, how can they "know" that they have to roll over? In terms of physics, how can one interact with an environment so quickly? Thanks in advance.

They probably learn to pick up subtle clues - sound, most likely, but also perhaps shadows, or even vibrations in the floor, I suppose.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Do you have any insights on how this can be done? If there is no time for them to react, how can they "know" that they have to roll over? In terms of physics, how can one interact with an environment so quickly? Thanks in advance.

My pet notion about things like this is that people may well be able to sense electric fields. In the right state of mind, calm, they might be able to process the vague sensation into a usefull reaction, in this case, an emotion.

You may have heard about "seizure dogs" who appear to be able to sense when someone is going to have a seizure, even before that person experiences their own aura. This strongly suggests that the dog can somehow sense changes in whatever electric field may emanate from a person.

I suppose if a dog can do it, then a person might also be able to do it. So, I speculate that what the person about to be hit senses is the change in the electric field of the person about to strike that results from their final decision to go through with the blow.

 

[H-bar None]

I've studied martial arts for a number of years and I can say there is no magic to avoiding the sword. I'm very skeptical.

Here is my reasoning:

First, the students and masters can train constantly. They can develop a rhythm like dancers and move in a pre-determined way. Martial art forms capitalize on learning patterns and rhytms.

Second, everyone has a "tell" that advertise their movements loudly.

Third, can anyone put this experiment to some scientific rigor. Can we eliminate "luck", is there a causal relationship between striker and and strikee.

Most martial arts demonstrations are smoke and mirrors. For example, it takes little skill to break a piece of wood. You can be taught in less than five minutes.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Second, everyone has a "tell" that advertise their movements loudly.

Can you expand on this? This sounds like what the person about to be struck must be sensing, then.

 

[Chronos]

I vote with Ivan, it's called cueing. This phenomenon has been well documented in ESP hoaxes.

 

[cursa]

Thank you very much for your responses. This martial art is called Ninjutsu and it is very different from other martial arts because there are no predetermined forms, rather we learn to respond intuitively. Also, the test I mentioned can only be performed by people who have been training for many years, and the person who strikes with the sword can only be the Grand Master. I've been told that during this test, the Grand Master not only strikes with the wooden sword, but must also have the intention to hurt, to think of the student as an enemy.

 

[Severfeelor]

Thank you very much for your responses. This martial art is called Ninjutsu and it is very different from other martial arts because there are no predetermined forms, rather we learn to respond intuitively. Also, the test I mentioned can only be performed by people who have been training for many years, and the person who strikes with the sword can only be the Grand Master. I've been told that during this test, the Grand Master not only strikes with the wooden sword, but must also have the intention to hurt, to think of the student as an enemy.

From what i understand what you said, I think that Grand Master might be crazy.

 

[FredGarvin]

Along the lines of what H-Bar mentioned, I too have studied for more than a few years. In Aikido, we work at developing awareness. That however is not anything magical or mystical. The development comes in being able to still your mind and just not let the outside world distract you. It is difficult. I don't think I know of anyone who says that they have mastered that aspect. It is a thing you continually strive for.

Personally, whenever I see or read things like this, I think scam automatically. The martial arts world is full of them. There are a lot of people who will do/say anything in an effort to set themselves or their ryu apart from everyone else, to make them look special.

Also, anyone who calls themselves "master" or "grand master" immediately makes me suspicious.

There's my two cents worth.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Personally, whenever I see or read things like this, I think scam automatically. The martial arts world is full of them.

Recently I saw a show about a guy who claimed he could stop people's hearts with a special nerve pinch.

He did a carefully controlled demo, and they had the subject hooked up to a portable EKG when he did it. According to that he did actually flatline, until the guy revived him.

Ever heard of this? It was completely new to me and I didn't really know what to make of it.

 

[FredGarvin]

Recently I saw a show about a guy who claimed he could stop people's hearts with a special nerve pinch.

He did a carefully controlled demo, and they had the subject hooked up to a portable EKG when he did it. According to that he did actually flatline, until the guy revived him.

Ever heard of this? It was completely new to me and I didn't really know what to make of it.

No. I haven't. But then again, I tend to shy away from martial arts foklore. That sounds surprisingly like "Bruce Lee could rip your heart out and show it to you before it stopped beating" kind of stuff.

From a scientific standpoint, I would like to get the opinions of some cardiovascular doctors on the idea of one single nerve controling your heart beating.

Then again, there are many things we can not explain in this world..."There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[inha]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=122

this vid is pure awesomeness.

"you just hit me in the head" and the visit at the bjj school are pretty good indications of the uselessness of all that pressure point and no touch ****.

 

[zoobyshoe]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=122

this vid is pure awesomeness.

"you just hit me in the head" and the visit at the bjj school are pretty good indications of the uselessness of all that pressure point and no touch ****.

I can't view the video, and have no idea what's going on. Can you describe what happens and the conclusion it leads to? You're saying it debunks the "pressure point" guy somehow?

 

[zoobyshoe]

From a scientific standpoint, I would like to get the opinions of some cardiovascular doctors on the idea of one single nerve controling your heart beating.

I can actually speculate a decent argument in favor of this being possible from what I know about nerves and the brain. There wouldn't have to be any special "undreamed of" thing at work. But your mention of scams and the lengths people go to to make themselves seem special in the martial arts makes me first want to question if it is actually happening at all as claimed.

 

[inha]

I can't view the video, and have no idea what's going on. Can you describe what happens and the conclusion it leads to? You're saying it debunks the "pressure point" guy somehow?

http://videos.subfighter.com/highlights/other/Dimmak Death Touch Fraud.wmv

try this instead. basically the dude can't get his stuff to work on anyone besides
his own students.

 

[zoobyshoe]

try this instead. basically the dude can't get his stuff to work on anyone besides
his own students.

OK. I get it: he has basically hypnotized his own students into believing he has this power, but can't get the hypnosis to work on people not under his sway.

 

[Chronos]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=122

this vid is pure awesomeness.

"you just hit me in the head" and the visit at the bjj school are pretty good indications of the uselessness of all that pressure point and no touch ****.

Bullshido??

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How can people break bricks and two by fours with their hands? I would expect the bone to break first, assuming that its not rigged.

 

[extreme_machinations]

Well there was this very strange incident at school

I ws walking wid group of people and i heard [tHuk !]sound ,i thought subconciously that it ws the sound of a bat striking the leather cricket ball[as hard as a baseball],cos a bunch of kids were playing cricket nearby ,they were behind me i couldn't see them
A second later i ducked [for no apparent reason,cos remember i can't see the approaching ball ] and guess what the ball Wwhuushes past ,scraping my head .


EXTRA SENSORY PERCEPTIONS i thought ,but this is just too easy a way to explain such things ,
i haven't been trained in martial arts [well would u count a green stripe in taek-wondo],hell i don't even posess a good intuitive power .

do brainwaves[im not talking abt a good idea] have sometin to do wid this .
can some one demystify these brain waves for me please , like their nature ,are they electro magnetic in nature and what produces these brain waves

 

[extreme_machinations]

hey that heart stopping technique does actually work , i saw it on tv, the dude is vietnam veteran and the technique he uses is know as DIN-MAK{korean] ,or the death touch.
he claims to hit the pressure points so that the blood flow to the barin stops momentarily which is sufficient to knock the subject out cold .and the subjects were not trained by him

cmon that's beleivable

 

[FredGarvin]

How can people break bricks and two by fours with their hands? I would expect the bone to break first, assuming that its not rigged.

For 99.5% of the people doing the breaks, I suggest examining the boundry conditions set up for the break. My favorite is the cement slab that is 3 feet long and supported on the outer 1/8th inch of both ends. You could set a glass of water on it and would break (like shown in that video). Admittedly, there are a few rare people out there who continuously train in breaking and toughening up the musculature around the hands and feet. Of course, if you look at them, they all look like they have advanced stages of arthritis.

The "technique" is called Dim-Mak (not Din). That "master" has all the highlights of a scammer. A good story, horrible technique and morons to do what he says.

Great video.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

 

[zoobyshoe]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

I've never seen anyone break even one 2x4 and would like to. I have seen people break short, stacked pieces of 1x12 when each layer was separated from the one beneath by a spacer, but only along the grain.

I haven't tried it, but I bet it isn't easy to break a 2x4 against the grain with a sledge hammer. The break would be quite messy, irregular and splintery.

 

[Kakarot]

hmm well one day at work i hit my the top of my hand against the corner of a metal case. i continued to work for about 40 seconds and then i began to black out. i don't know what it was but i think i hit ta pressure point and it stopped the flow of blood to my brain. i had to lie down for a few seconds to make it go away lol

 

[H-bar None]

Dim-Mak could work in theory. Pressure points describe either bundle of nerves, arteries in the neck, thigh, and arms. If one hits them precisely you can do some serious damage.

One pressure point is a bundle of nerves located just under the arm can be "shorted out" when its struck. Our instructor would just tap this point and we could feel the shock down one side of our bodies. If you hit this point hard enough it could cause paralysis (temporary?).

Along the lines of what H-Bar mentioned, I too have studied for more than a few years. In Aikido, we work at developing awareness.

I started out in Aikido. The physics in terms of rotation is awesome. I'm working on a project that deals with this aspect of martial arts.

 

[FredGarvin]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

Perrsonally, the most impressive breaks I have seen were done on a standard piece of pine, approximately 12" x 12" x .5", that was tossed in the air and struck. That demonstration showed not real power, but speed and focus. That impresses me a thousand times more than some 250 pound behemoth standing over a stack of boards. IMO.

 

[FredGarvin]

I started out in Aikido. The physics in terms of rotation is awesome. I'm working on a project that deals with this aspect of martial arts.

It is indeed a wonderful thing. Like everything else, it has it's place. It gives you a great sense of the energy within the movement of two people. How it rises and falls constantly. If you're intereste in sharing the project I'd be interested to hear it.

 

[MaxS]

I've studied martial arts for 10 years, that man is a scammer but many of the things you people are talking about are completely legitimate.

Pressure points for instance are just weak points in muscles (and between muscles) and can be found at very specific points on the body. When hit they simply cause sharp pain - different from a regular strike, its an acute stabbing sensation that I'm sure many of you have felt. They don't stop the flow of blood to the brain or anything lol.

There IS a way to pinch nerves and halt bloodflow to the brain though by striking simultaneously both sides of the neck (along the arteries) with straight ridge hands (think chopping). This CAN pinch the nerves resulting in a temporary blackout (This is also taught in military martial arts or MIPMAPS and is completely legitimate).

As for breaking boards and concrete and shattering bones, well, it is legit and sometimes people DO break bones breaking concrete. There is no trick involved except for the way you hit the board or concrete, that is, many people make the mistake of trying to hit through the board with continuous pressure, this results in a bruised hand or foot. The way to do it is by making a fast strike and pulling back (sort of like the crack of a whip) - this will result in snapping the board. As for concrete you really do have to strike through.

 

[FredGarvin]

Pressure points for instance are just weak points in muscles (and between muscles) and can be found at very specific points on the body. When hit they simply cause sharp pain - different from a regular strike, its an acute stabbing sensation that I'm sure many of you have felt. They don't stop the flow of blood to the brain or anything lol.

No one is debating the legitimacy of pressure points. My wife is a massage therapist and she has studied trigger points (a bit different, but the same results). Both theories are put to the test most every day I step on the mats.

There IS a way to pinch nerves and halt bloodflow to the brain though by striking simultaneously both sides of the neck (along the arteries) with straight ridge hands (think chopping). This CAN pinch the nerves resulting in a temporary blackout (This is also taught in military martial arts or MIPMAPS and is completely legitimate).

You're mixing things up just a bit. There is a way to "pinch nerves" and halt the blood flow through striking arteries? Like I mentioned before, I need to get some more information on any nerve that has complete control like that. Striking the arterys in the neck is something different. Collapsing an aretery or two would explain the effects.

As for breaking boards and concrete and shattering bones, well, it is legit and sometimes people DO break bones breaking concrete.

Again, I'm not saying it's not legit in some cases, but there are many that are not and with all of them, I question the need. Board breaking, IMO is a circus side show.

 

[H-bar None]

Board or bone breaking in G. Physics is due to impulse. The longer the hands maintain contact with the surface of the board the more damage inflicted on the hands.

 

[FredGarvin]

I did see a show a while back that attempted to explain some of the "mysterious" aspects of the MA. Most of the show was pretty much crap, but it did have one segment that was worth watching. It involved a test with two people; one was a joe off the street and the other was a legitimate Shaolin Monk who teaches in Brooklyn, NY. The test had both men break a board with one strike. The testers measured the displacement of the person's hand and backed out the speed of the strike. Both men broke the board. However, the plot of displacement vs. time showed a pretty large differernce. The regular joe had a plot that looked like a bell shaped curve with a large standard deviation showing that his strike was taking a long period of time. The monk's however was a similar graph, but with a much shorter duration, showing the much shorter time frame in which his strike took place.

 

[Happeh]

Hi everyone. I've heard that martial artists can somehow foresee an event before it actually happens. There is a test in which the student kneels, and the teacher behind him strikes with a sword, and so the student must avoid the strike by rolling. According to the people that have passed this test, it is impossible to feel the movement of the sword with the ordinary senses because of the great speed, but they rather "sense" a great fear of being killed and then they react. Do you have any insights on how this can be done? If there is no time for them to react, how can they "know" that they have to roll over? In terms of physics, how can one interact with an environment so quickly? Thanks in advance.

People have energy. Lots of people have energy naturally. Martial arts develop a persons energy. The amount of energy they have and their ability to sense energy.

When a person is going to attack you, his intent, his thoughts, are about hurting the other person. The other person picks this up and moves accordingly.

In terms of physics? The martial artist has a faster warning system than you do. You think the man is attacking when you see the sword move. The martial artists knows the guy is attacking when the man clearly thinks "I am attacking now". Before his muscles move or anything the other martial arts guy can be receiving a warning.

 

[Happeh]

Recently I saw a show about a guy who claimed he could stop people's hearts with a special nerve pinch.

The advanced guys don't even have to do that. They can kill someone without touching them.

You know how Darth Vader choked that guy out in the first Star War movies? Vader made that choking motion with his hands and the guy started choking? That is real. People can really do that.

The martial arts guy just reaches into the other guys body and stops his heart.

 

[Happeh]

http://videos.subfighter.com/highlights/other/Dimmak Death Touch Fraud.wmv

try this instead. basically the dude can't get his stuff to work on anyone besides
his own students.

This is not a fair test. The people involved do not understand what is going on so they cannot explain it properly.

The EMT's recorded that the people went into shock. That their heart was affected. They were truly mystified why it happened. They acted like it should not have happened at all. To me, that proves that people have energy. If the students are faking falling down...well, it still proves people have energy if their heart rate went up and they went into shock.

The reason it does not work on the Jiu Jitsu guys is the same reason you cannot scare police or gang members or soldiers. They are used to it. Their training hardens them against that kind of attacks. They literally become hard so the energy cannot get inside of them as easily. If you look at the people falling down, they all looked like soft bodies.

 

[Happeh]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

The bones are protected by the build up of flesh and, for lack of an accurate descriptive term, chi. If you look at the hands of these people they will be very thick. Sometimes twice as thick as normal peoples hands. When they hit, they can harden this area to something resembling steel.

A buddy of mine was in the navy. He was talking to some guy from the Philipines I think he said. The guy says "watch this" and did a full power elbow on a steel pole on the navy ship they were on. My buddy said the guy dented the pole. Even though it wasn't much of a dent, most people would have broken an arm doing that.

 

[Happeh]

You're mixing things up just a bit. There is a way to "pinch nerves" and halt the blood flow through striking arteries? Like I mentioned before, I need to get some more information on any nerve that has complete control like that. Striking the arterys in the neck is something different. Collapsing an aretery or two would explain the effects.

You are looking for the wrong thing. It is not nerves. It is acupuncture points. The two are not the same. You need to read some chinese medicine books to get an idea of what you are looking for.

 

[extreme_machinations]

Happeh ,can You Elaborate On How People Can Be Killed Without Being Touched ?
Does It Work If The Other Guy Closes His Eyes , I Mean Is It Psychosomatic? Or Does It Have Someting To Do With Chi , Which My Intuition Tells Me Is Not For Real .

 

[Happeh]

Happeh ,can You Elaborate On How People Can Be Killed Without Being Touched ?
Does It Work If The Other Guy Closes His Eyes , I Mean Is It Psychosomatic? Or Does It Have Someting To Do With Chi , Which My Intuition Tells Me Is Not For Real .

No it is not psychosomatic. You mean the person believes that they should die so they die. Right?

It is induction. There are many ways, many metaphorical comparisons that can be made to get the point across. I use words and comparisons that I feel comfortable with. I say that people have energy. You could view it as you are an intelligence that is an electromagnetic field that floats around. That field moves into and takes over your body to do what you want.

The way a person kills somone is that their electromagnetic field reaches into the other person's body and takes control of it. You can kill a person, choke them or control them like a marionette. This phenomenon is what the concept of possession is based on.

Did you ever watch the movie Scanners? Of course it is a movie with special effects that are fake. The underlying idea is sound and accurate. People controlling the bodies of other people.

If you don't like the electromagnetic field controlling the body analogy, use whatever you feel comfortable with. I say energy because what else does science know about that is invisible but can induce an observable physical reaction? A laser is a good example. You can't see the beam but it will burn you.

You cannot see what is occurring between the two people. You can only observe the physical actions of the controller and the person being controlled. Their actions clue you to what is going on the same way that if somone turns on a laser, and another person starts jumping around in pain, you know the first person must have aimed the laser at the second person. Even though you cannot see the laser beam.

 

[MaxS]

CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK HEAD

 

[FredGarvin]

Happeh, pardon my french, but you are full of it. I let a lot slide when it comes to martial arts folklore and mysticism, but you are in la la land.

 

[Happeh]

For guys that are so smart, you don't think too good do you? You are so certain of what you know your head is like a block of iron. Impervious to knowledge that does not fit into what you believe.

If you were true scientists, instead of laughing like a couple of chuckleheads hanging out in front of the local liquor store, you would say "Can your prove this? Is there some evidence you have of this?" Or, if you are capable of critical analysis, you would say "Happeh. I do not understand this point here. Could you elaborate please"?

First impressions are important. The impression that you have given is that you rush to judgement without properly investigating the situation. You give lip service only to the scientific method.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Even though the claims made are pretty far out there, I agree that everyone needs to be respectful. Name calling and pot shots do nothing to counter the claim.

 

[FredGarvin]

For guys that are so smart, you don't think too good do you? You are so certain of what you know your head is like a block of iron. Impervious to knowledge that does not fit into what you believe.

If you were true scientists, instead of laughing like a couple of chuckleheads hanging out in front of the local liquor store, you would say "Can your prove this? Is there some evidence you have of this?" Or, if you are capable of critical analysis, you would say "Happeh. I do not understand this point here. Could you elaborate please"?

First impressions are important. The impression that you have given is that you rush to judgement without properly investigating the situation. You give lip service only to the scientific method.

There is no elaboration needed. You have made your opinions quite clear. I too am doing just that. I do not pretend to know everything, but I have seen a lot of claims in my short time. Your claims are not reasonable. A person killing another person without being touched? Well, with a weapon, ok, but with:

The way a person kills somone is that their electromagnetic field reaches into the other person's body and takes control of it.

That is quite off the map. Statements like that go through my "critical analysis machine" right away. I would be more than happy to see any kind of NON-ANECDOTAL evidence that this, or anything else you have said, is possible.

Yes, first impressions are important. You give the impression of a person who has read or heard stories regarding these concepts and taken them too seriously. This is exactly the kind of stuff that floats around out there that gives martial arts a bad name.

 

[FredGarvin]

Even though the claims made are pretty far out there, I agree that everyone needs to be respectful. Name calling and pot shots do nothing to counter the claim.

Agreed and understood. I have had a rough week with "alternative theories" this week.

 

[inha]

Let's assume that these powers are real for a moment. If they don't work on people who can fight, a street brawler or a trained fighter for example, what's the use of them? To kill old ladies that cut you off in a line?