Can the speed of sound reach the speed of light?

[michael3.1415]

1. The equation given in my Physics text for the speed of sound through air at a given temperature

v = (331.5 + 0.606T) m/sec

where T is degrees Celsius

According to this equation, there is a theoretical temperature at which the speed of sound would reach c:

331.5 + 0.606T = c = 3.00 x 10^8 m/sec

331.5 is insignificant so: 3.00 x 10^8 m/sec = 0.606T and T = 4.95 x 10^8 degrees Celsius

The temperature at the center of the Sun is about 15 million degrees (1.5 x 10^7) so this is not ridiculously high.

Is this realistic, or is there a better equation for high temperatures? What would happen when this temperature is exceeded?

 

[Doc Al]

That equation for the speed of sound as a function of temperature is only valid for a relatively small range of temperatures and under certain conditions. (Certainly not at solar interior temperatures!) I'm unable to give you a better equation for sound speed at those temperatures, but I can tell you that relativity will prohibit any sound from traveling at the speed of light.

Interesting question!

 

[michael3.1415]

Thanks for your reply! Two more questions:

1. I'm not that familiar with relativity, but doesn't that rule only apply to matter? Sound is a wave like light. It's a wave propogated by the compression and rarefaction of actual matter, I guess, so that's probably the difference.

2. How exactly do you define the speed of light? Light speed varies. While sound speeds usually speeds up in denser mediums, light is inhibited by the existence of matter.

 

[Doc Al]

1. I'm not that familiar with relativity, but doesn't that rule only apply to matter? Sound is a wave like light. It's a wave propogated by the compression and rarefaction of actual matter, I guess, so that's probably the difference.

That 'speed limit' applies to anything capable of transmitting energy or sending a signal. (And it certainly applies to mass moving.)

2. How exactly do you define the speed of light? Light speed varies. While sound speeds usually speeds up in denser mediums, light is inhibited by the existence of matter.

When we talk of nothing moving faster than the speed of light, we mean the speed of light in a vacuum.

 

[Borek]

Sound is a longitudinal wave, when it propagates mass moves forward and back. So as the mass can't move faster than light, sound wave can't as well.

 

[michael3.1415]

When we talk of nothing moving faster than the speed of light, we mean the speed of light in a vacuum.

So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light traveling through a medium?

 

[Doc Al]

So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light traveling through a medium?

Beats me. But it's certainly possible (under the right conditions) to have a particle move through a substance faster than the speed of light in that substance. When a charged particle does this it can give off radiation. (Look up Cerenkov radiation.)

In any case, the relativistic 'speed limit' is the speed of light in a vacuum, not the (lower) speed of light in some medium.

 

[michael3.1415]

Ok thanks. I checked up the Cerenkov radiation thing. Very interesting.

 

[dulrich]

This link might help on the formula for the speed of sound:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/souspe3.html#c1

A "better" formula for the speed of sound (assuming air to be an ideal gas) is

\sqrt{\frac{\gamma kT}{M}} = \sqrt{\frac{\gamma P}{\rho}}

This is still based on classical physics, so this formula will also break down when the speeds and energies become relativistic.

 

[Beprepared]

So, it's theoretically possible for the speed of sound to reach the speed of light traveling through a medium?

this one, i can answer... yes, sound can travel the speed of light AND FASTER

here's the caviat. I do not mean the speed of light in a vacuum. Light can be slowed. There are MULTIPLE experiments that have slowed it to 90 m/s or less...

the speed of sound is 340 m/s +/- a bit. And that's just in air... it's even faster in solids


Sound can NEVER reach the speed of light in a vacuum... it is as close to impossible as a thing can be.

Impossible just means really REALLY difficult. The word for a thing that can not happen is "contradiction" :)

 

[Borek]

Sound can NEVER reach the speed of light in a vacuum...

I would love to see how you are going to measure speed of sound in vacuum

 

[Redbelly98]

this one, i can answer... yes, sound can travel the speed of light AND FASTER

here's the caviat. I do not mean the speed of light in a vacuum. Light can be slowed. There are MULTIPLE experiments that have slowed it to 90 m/s or less...

the speed of sound is 340 m/s +/- a bit. And that's just in air... it's even faster in solids

But those experiments with slow speed of light were done using Bose Einstein condensates (assuming you are referring to the work of Lene Hau?), a pretty unusual state of matter. Is there a known measurement of the speed of sound in such a material? Just because the speed of sound is something in air, and even faster in solids, does not imply anything about what it is in a Bose Einstein condensate.

 

[Beprepared]

But those experiments with slow speed of light were done using Bose Einstein condensates (assuming you are referring to the work of Lene Hau?), a pretty unusual state of matter. Is there a known measurement of the speed of sound in such a material? Just because the speed of sound is something in air, and even faster in solids, does not imply anything about what it is in a Bose Einstein condensate.

very interesting point... i'd like to see info on that myself