Originally posted by Royce
When I was growing up Lucifer, Satan and the devil seemed to be used interchangebly which confused me no end. Later as I read in the Bible and was taught by more knowledgeable people I leaned that Lucifer was the brightest angel in Heaven and one of God's favorites but he rebelled against the will of God and talked other angels into rebelling also. One of these was Satan. Satan who is/was the prince of the earth/world (see John N.T.) was the spiritual being in charge of the Earth and all it's inhabitants. It was this Satan who tempted Adam and Eve into disobeying God and God's will. This is supposedly the fall of Man.
This is very interesting for me to hear about. i have never heard of lucifer being an angel held in respect by God who rebelled. Do you know where they got this from, i would be very interested in reaserching more into this area.
Satan, however, that is an intersting topic. I was aware of him ebing named the prince of men, and that does not surprise me much, though i would like to know where they did get the refence of him also being an angel of God.
as far as i can tell, the refrence most used to describe Satans decent from the heavens is where they are describing a falling star in the old testement around the time of the king Nebecaneza - but how they related that to being the fall of satan, and not the fall of the king, i do not know, nor will they tell me, nor does it explain how Satan could have been around on Earth rebelling and making Adam and Eve sin. If you could post me some refrences, i would like to look at their material for this, it is of great interest to me.
In the New Testament, the book of John, Jesus defeated Satan and took all of his power from him. Satan is without power over us or anything except for that power which we give him; i.e. we worship him or let him persuade us into doing something wrong, evil or against the will of God.
Yes, it is true that jesus defeated satan in the desert. But then he took all of his power? i am not aware of this refrence, plase post the quotes for me to look at.
A far as i could make it, the 'defeating' of satan was simply him ignoring the pharacies and the sagusies who were following him around in the desert, trying to get him to show off his powers. he enterd the desert with no food and no water, and they were telling him to turn rocks into food, and to call down leauges of angels to show off the fact that he had this power. but as John said, there are only 3 real sins - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and pride in life. He defeated all these things, and hence defeated Satan. Satan, as far as my reading, has never been some mystical entity or fallen angel, but has simply been the incarnation of ANYONE that is in the way of what you are doing. You are challanging God? you are Gods Adversary, which is all 'Satin" actully means. God is Trying to kill you? the God is your adversary, and hence is Satan. I have writtern a post describing this in more detail a little back if you wish more on this, then let me know and i will try to explain what i have come to think of as far as Satan is concerned. Any information you wish me to read, plase post it for me, i am more than interested in this topic and the things people have said about it, and any writings describing them as Angels will be more than welcome reading for me.
Supposedly Lucifer in being held in isolation and Satan is being held powerless on Earth and in isolation as is the Earth and consequently us, until judgement is passed upon them and us. This is supposedly why we see no evidence of God on earth.
this is impressive. any more explanation on where this theory came from would be very welcome.
It seems to me that to belief in both God and the Devil in constant battle over our souls is a metaphor of our interal struggle between what we think is right, good and bad, evil. If it isn't that but a belief that the Devil and Hell actually exist, then it seems to me that this is polytheism, a belief in two gods of nearly equal power.
maybe. but again, that just depends on what you mean as the devil, and weather God has let him live and exist for reasons of freewill (a defence that seems rather pointless from my prespective of what evil actually is) if God is still able to dystroy the devil if he wishes, but leaves him there for some reason not known to us (a very dodgy defence) then it does not need to be polytheism...
This I do not believe in and wonder at Christian who profess to and claim to believe in the literal translation of the Bible or fundamentalism. They are either IMO ignorant of what they are saying and implying or they are far better mental gymnasts and jugglers than I am.
what do you take to litral translation of the bible? The devil and Lucifer never actuly apear in the bible, nor does the concept of the trinity or going to heven or hell when you die. infact, hell is not even mentioned. Satin was always just a wrod for adversary. this is why i wish to know your sources, as i have never seen such things mentioned in the bible. but if you have read somthing i have not, then please, i would like you to post any new information you have for me.
All of this is a mental compilation and reconcilliation of what I have read, studied and been told over the years and are from many different scources. In short append IMO to all of it or take it for what it's worth though some of it is based on some authority or another.
ok, but if you do have any sources... please, i would really like to see where you have come across your ideas and what makes you think this way..
