Cardinalic flaw of Riemann integral

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter pyfgcr
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Integral Riemann
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and understanding of the Riemann integral, particularly focusing on the concept of Riemann sums and the implications of cardinality in the context of continuous intervals. Participants explore whether the definition holds when considering the cardinality of intervals and the nature of infinite sums.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that the Riemann integral is defined as the sum of infinite rectangles, questioning the validity of this definition due to the cardinality of the interval being continuous.
  • Another participant clarifies that the sum referenced is a countable infinity, emphasizing that an uncountable sum would diverge unless only countably many terms are non-zero.
  • A different participant states that each Δxi represents a continuum, suggesting there is no contradiction in the original claim.
  • Concerns are raised about the definition of the Riemann integral, with one participant noting that it is typically described as the limit of finite sums over partitions, not as an infinite sum.
  • One participant acknowledges their earlier confusion and admits to omitting the limit for convenience in their explanation.
  • Another participant firmly states that the Riemann integral is a limit of Riemann sums, challenging the notion of it being an infinite sum of rectangles and asserting that the original definition is invalid.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the definition of the Riemann integral and the nature of Riemann sums. There is no consensus on the validity of the original claim about infinite rectangles.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved issues regarding the assumptions made about the nature of infinite sums and the definitions of Riemann sums. The discussion highlights the dependence on interpretations of cardinality and the limits involved in defining integrals.

pyfgcr
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I have learned that integral is the Riemann sum of infinite rectangle, that:
Ʃ^{n=1}_{∞}f(xi)Δxi = ∫^{b}_{a}f(x)dx
However, I think that (a,b) is the continuous interval, so the number of rectangle should be c instead of \aleph0 (cardinality of natural number N).
So I wonder whether there are some problem that this definition is not valid anymore.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
How so? The oo you're using is the countable infinity. An uncountable sum will

necessarily diverge , unless only countably-many are non-zero. Still, good

question.

Edit: after reading SteveL's comment, I guess I should be more precise:

The limit in the sum you describe is a limit as you approach countable infinity;

so you are selecting one point x_i* in each subinterval , and , as N-->oo (countable

infinity) there is a bijection between the number of rectangles and the x_i* you choose.

Since the x_i* are indexed by countable infinity, so are the rectangles.
 
Last edited:
Each Δxi is a continuum - there is no contradiction.
 
pyfgcr said:
I have learned that integral is the Riemann sum of infinite rectangle, that:
Ʃ^{n=1}_{∞}f(xi)Δxi = ∫^{b}_{a}f(x)dx

I'm a little confused about this definition. Typically the Riemann integral is the limit of Riemann sums, each one of which is a finite sum over a partition of the interval. Each partition is a finite set of subintervals.

There is no infinite sum such as you've notated. Is this a definition you saw in class or in a book?
 
Thanks for explanation, I have understood.
And I mean it's the limit of finite sum, but I am a bit lazy so I remove the limit part for convenience.
 
pyfgcr said:
I have learned that integral is the Riemann sum of infinite rectangle,
No, it isn't. It is a limit of Riemann sums, each of which involves a finite sum. That is not "the Riemann sum of infinite rectangles" which is not defined.
that:
Ʃ^{n=1}_{∞}f(xi)Δxi = ∫^{b}_{a}f(x)dx
However, I think that (a,b) is the continuous interval, so the number of rectangle should be c instead of \aleph0 (cardinality of natural number N).
So I wonder whether there are some problem that this definition is not valid anymore.
It should be no surprise that your mistaken definition is not valid.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K