Change in temprature is zero. what about change in internal energy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between changes in internal energy and temperature in thermodynamic processes, particularly focusing on isothermal and adiabatic conditions. Participants explore scenarios involving gas expansion and heat exchange, questioning the implications of constant temperature on internal energy changes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant argues that if there is no change in temperature, there should be no change in internal energy, but presents a scenario where a gas expands isothermally while doing work, leading to a contradiction.
  • Another participant suggests that the internal energy changed due to heat leaking into the room, implying that energy conservation principles apply even in isothermal processes.
  • A different participant questions the application of both isothermal and adiabatic conditions in the same scenario, proposing a thought experiment with adiabatic walls to examine temperature changes.
  • One response indicates that the kinetic energy of gas escaping can lead to cooling, suggesting that the specific heat capacity of the remaining gas plays a role in the overall energy dynamics.
  • Another participant notes that internal energy is temperature-dependent primarily for ideal gases, hinting that real gases may behave differently under similar conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between temperature and internal energy, with no consensus reached on the implications of isothermal versus adiabatic processes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conditions under which internal energy changes occur.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of thermodynamic processes, noting that assumptions about heat exchange and ideal gas behavior may not hold in all scenarios. The discussion reflects the nuanced nature of thermodynamic principles and their applications.

vkash
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change in internal energy is a function of temperature. So if there is no change in temperature then there should no change in internal energy.
But consider this example.
A gas is at 20 atm pressure in a room whose pressure is 1 atm.using external forces(on piston). Gas slowly expands its volume till it's pressure became 1 atm.during the process the temperature is maintained at 278K(room temperature).
work done in process
work done(W)= nRT*ln(P1/P2) (Δ)T=0; so it's isothermal)
heat supplied(Q)=0 (No heat is supplied, gas expand by force on piston of it's own pressure)
change in internal energy=Q-W (using Q=U+W)
So from here we come to know that change in internal energy is not zero. But there is no change in temperature during the whole process so change in internal energy should zero...
So where am i getting it wrong.?

thanks!
 
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you will need to understand one of the basics in such contrived thermodynamic questions - isothermal (ie same temperature) and adiabatic (ie same energy) processes - in your example the internal energy changed because heat 'leaked out' into the room - overall energy was conserved
 
sambristol said:
you will need to understand one of the basics in such contrived thermodynamic questions - isothermal (ie same temperature) and adiabatic (ie same energy) processes - in your example the internal energy changed because heat 'leaked out' into the room - overall energy was conserved

I think you want to say that i am using both the processes in single case.(Q=0 as well as ΔT=0)
But what if we do this processes in a container having adiabatic walls(fully insulated walls). Will temperature of gas fall down?
 
yes - the kinetic energy of the escaped gas more than compensates for the specific heat capacity of the remaining gas* so it will cool - see footnote*

Regards

Sam

* Footnote This is for air at normal STP but all gases have an inversion temperature which is why we can liquidfy gases - look up Joule Kelvin Cooling
 
As they said, you can't consider there isn't heat exchange because in order to maintain the same temperature, you must exchange heat.

Also, internal energy is a function of temperature only if we are talking about ideal gases. This property does not hold for real gases.
 

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