Change of Variables Question with chain rule

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the function of two variables, u(x,y), defined in terms of two arbitrary functions, f and g, using a change of variables. Participants are tasked with determining the first and second derivatives of u with respect to x and y, and showing a specific relationship between these derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the application of the chain rule for derivatives, questioning the interpretation of derivative notation and the relationships between the derivatives of u, f, and g. There is discussion about the correct expression for the first derivatives and the subsequent steps needed to derive the second derivatives.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants providing insights and corrections to each other's interpretations of the derivatives. Some guidance has been offered regarding the differentiation process, but there is no explicit consensus on the final form of the derivatives or the relationship they are meant to satisfy.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the notation and the potential for misinterpretation, particularly regarding the order of differentiation and the use of subscripts in derivative notation. There is also mention of forum etiquette regarding the presentation of mathematical expressions.

RYANDTRAVERS
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Homework Statement


Consider the function of two variables:
u(x,y) = f(x-y) + g(x+(1/3)y)
where f(s) and g(t) are each arbitrary functions of a single variable.

Using the change of variables:
s = x-y
t = x-(1/3)y

use the chain rule to determine the first and second derivatives of u with respect to x and y in terms of derivatives of f and g.

Hence, show that the second derivatives satisfy
u_xx = 2u_xy + 3u_yy

where u_xx is the second derivative of u with respect to x, etc.

The Attempt at a Solution


My attempt, along with the original question paper, is attached as a PDF. It looks very fiddly but I have attempted the question a few times and still can’t satisfy the last equation.
 

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Last edited:
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Dear RY&T,

It's not all that difficult to use the subscript button on the green menu bar. makes life a lot easier for you and us...

Anyway, I'm not completely happy with ux = uf fs + ug gt
uf and ug are trivially 1 and I propose to carry it a little further:
ux = fs fx + gt gx
where fx and gx are trivially 1 also, leaving ux = fs + gt
(which incidentally may well be what you intended).

Similarly, uy = fs fy + gt gy = - fs + gt/3

The next step (on scan2 -- by the way: PF frowns on posting pictures when you can also type it out using the buttons -- or better: LaTeX) is a derailment:

uxx is the derivative of fs + gt and that certainly is not the same as ux ux :H !

Simply repeat what you did with u to get ux:

uxx = ( fs + gt )x = ( fs )x + ( gt )x

analogously with uyy and uxy (which I think is (uy)x -- someone correct me if I am wrong here -- too long ago :rolleyes: )

- [edit] corrected myself -- see post #4
 
Last edited:
I agree with you that uf and ug are trivially 1; however, with the uxx there is the derivative operator with respect to x acting on ux to give uxx. I wasn't multiplying ux by ux.
 
Hi,

I see what you mean. It just looked a lot like multiplying. Still a derailment to interpret ##\partial\over \partial x## as ##(f_s {\partial\over \partial f }+ g_t {\partial\over \partial g})##.

The incomplete way to write ##u_x## avenges itself somewhat.

Instead you want to differentiate ##u_x = u_f f_s s_x + u_g g_t t_x = f_s+g_t ## as ##(f_s)_x + (g_t)_x##. Write it out.

[edit]Or, if you want to write the whole thing, e.g. for the first term:

##{\partial\over \partial x} u_f f_s s_x = u_{fx} f_s s_x+u_f f_{sx} s_x+u_f f_s s_{xx}##​

And treat ##f_s## in ##(f_s)_x## the same way as you treated ##f## in ##(f)_x##:rolleyes: I have now also corrected myself in post #2. Really had to look it up: ##f_{xy} = (f_x)_y = \partial_{yx}f = {\partial^2f\over \partial y \partial x}={\partial\over \partial y}\left(\partial f\over \partial x\right )##

-
 
Last edited:
BvU said:
:rolleyes: I have now also corrected myself in post #2. Really had to look it up: ##f_{xy} = (f_x)_y = \partial_{yx}f = {\partial^2f\over \partial y \partial x}={\partial\over \partial y}\left(\partial f\over \partial x\right )##
Yes, the notation is counterintuitive, with ##f_{xy}## being read one way and ##\frac{\partial}{\partial y}\left( \frac{\partial f}{\partial x} \right)## being read the other way. IOW, with ##f_{xy}##, you read this left to right, meaning that you differentiate wrt x first, then with respect to y.
 

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