Cheap Gas: Filling Up My Car and Hoarding Gas

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Gas prices have recently dropped to around $2.08 per gallon, prompting discussions about potential gas hoarding. Despite the decrease in fuel prices, concerns persist about rising costs of other goods and the influence of futures speculators on the market. Some speculate that OPEC may be manipulating prices to maximize profits, especially in light of political factors surrounding upcoming elections. The conversation also touches on the role of alternative fuels and their impact on the petroleum industry, suggesting that oil companies may benefit from promoting alternatives to prolong their market dominance. Overall, the thread highlights a mix of economic concerns, market speculation, and political implications regarding fuel prices.
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I bought gas today for $2.08 cents a gallon. Filled up my car, went and got hubbys truck, filled that up. Then got all my gas cans, and filled them. I'm thinking about becoming a gas hoarder.
 
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Great, so the price of fuel has dropped... shame the cost of everything else is rising!
 
Demand is down, but it isn't down that much. Could it be that the futures speculators can no longer borrow money from the banks to speculate with??
 
edward said:
Demand is down, but it isn't down that much. Could it be that the futures speculators can no longer borrow money from the banks to speculate with??

Hmmmmmm, that is an interesting point! In any event, the "drill here and drill now" platform is dead because the price of crude is below the production costs of deep shelf oil, which is about $65 a barrel.
 
Ivan's last post about the "drill here drill now" concept made me wonder if somehow there isn't a false market manipulation by an entity like OPEC. If gas prices are low then there is no reason for Mccains drilling which would be another boost for Obama. After the election gas prices could return to their former highs and Obama would refuse to drill, therefore maximizing OPEC profits. Haha, well I know this sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory or something but it just popped into my mind. I am not really endorsing this viewpoint, I just think it is an interesting theory.

MedLine
 
MedLine said:
Ivan's last post about the "drill here drill now" concept made me wonder if somehow there isn't a false market manipulation by an entity like OPEC. If gas prices are low then there is no reason for Mccains drilling which would be another boost for Obama. After the election gas prices could return to their former highs and Obama would refuse to drill, therefore maximizing OPEC profits. Haha, well I know this sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory or something but it just popped into my mind. I am not really endorsing this viewpoint, I just think it is an interesting theory.

MedLine

Well, it's certainly ingenious. If you play your cards right, you could make an appearance as an 'expert' on Hannity's America. :wink:
 
In fact, OPEC has been cutting production to keep the price up, but to no avail.

It has been claimed that OPEC officials will admit in private that they fully intend to prevent the evolution of alternative fuels through market manipulation. I posted a news report about this some time ago.

Obama didn't support new ocean drilling because the impact would be negligible and ten years away. But, due to the misguided bipartisan support that this enjoyed for a time, Obama relented as a compromise; in the interest of gaining support for, and passing a comprehensive energy plan.
 
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Although OPEC did vote to reduce production, it would take a while for that oil to reach the market and certainly wouldn't change the market price of gasoline until after Obama is in the White House. Again, I am not saying that this is what is actually happening, just a little food for thought.

MedLine
 
Is it safe to say that the gas prices were manipulated rather than are a result of supply-demand, or global recession?
 
  • #10
Demand certainly plays a role, but I think Edward made a good point. It was known that the price of crude was artificially inflated by speculators. A shortage of credit, and the tens of trillions of dollars [if not more] that have turned into vaporware could certainly have a large effect in this regard.

When crude was selling in the 130s and $140 range, long before the economic collapse, the sources I most trust indicated that the price of crude should have probably been around $90.
 
  • #11
waht said:
Is it safe to say that the gas prices were manipulated rather than are a result of supply-demand, or global recession?
Oil companies are quite beholden the the right wing. Is it conceivable that this little gas-price vacation will evaporate after the election? Gas producers are very quick to jack up the price of gas if something happens overseas, many weeks before that oil could be refined and marketed as gasoline, diesel, etc. Why are gas prices dropping now? Such drops usually lag decreases in crude prices by many weeks. Something doesn't smell right. The petroleum industry has been gouging and profiteering quite merrily, then just before a national election, they decide to loosen up a bit...
 
  • #12
When Bush first started running for office in 1999, crude was selling for as little as $10 a barrel. It had hovered around $20 for decades - since the shortages of the 1970's.
 
  • #13
Hey thanks Turbo, glad someone can somewhat see where I was coming from with this one, I was beginning to feel like I had my back up against the wall.

MedLine
 
  • #14
Ivan Seeking said:
It has been claimed that OPEC officials will admit in private that they fully intend to prevent the evolution of alternative fuels through market manipulation. I posted a news report about this some time ago.

But alternative fuels are only that, alternative fuels. They aren't alternatives for all the other uses of petroleum, they just take the pressure off using it up so fast. It's really to the oil industry's advantage to encourage alternative fuel usage to preserve their own industry longer. If we start developing alternative methods of manufacturing things like plastics and such that are derived from petroleum products, then they'll have to worry.
 
  • #15
I don't care if I go to work on a horse, I don't want this happening to my Country anymore.

Alberta, Canada, Tar Sands...
The oil rush is also scarring a wilderness landscape: millions of tonnes of plant life and top soil is scooped away in vast open-pit mines and millions of litres of water are diverted from rivers up to five barrels of water are needed to produce a single barrel of crude and the process requires huge amounts of natural gas. The industry, which now includes all the major oil multinationals, including the Anglo-Dutch Shell and American combine Exxon-Mobil, boasts that it takes two tonnes of the raw sands to produce a single barrel of oil. BP insists it will use a less damaging extraction method, but it accepts that its investment will increase its carbon footprint.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-biggest-environmental-crime-in-history-764102.html
 
  • #16
I was on empty the other day, and completely filled up my car for $20.00. It was super nice, I was smiling all the way home, but I think we all need to be prepared for it to go back up after elections...
 
  • #17
well, now we should all go back to driving Hummers, SUVs, Lincoln Town Cars, Cadillacs, or whatever fat american car.

i remember in the 90s, once in a while the local gas stations in the Newark area had some "gas wars" and the price dropped to two digits. one time as low as $0.909 per gallon. at that time was when they were considering the "Carbon Tax" that Clinton proposed (you know, that 50 cent tax that Bush beat over Kerry's head in 2004 and then Kerry, in all of his political courage, said that he voted against it after he voted for it). well, when gas was a dollar a gallon, or $1.27 or $1.37 in the 90s is exactly when we needed a 50 cent gas tax so that American consumers would take this finite and environmentally costly resource seriously. but they couldn't even get to 5 cents, all this Congress could pass was 4.9 cents.

shameful.

are we going to repeat that shame now?
 
  • #18
I paid $2.73/gal tonight at a station about 32 mi from house (I had a presentation to do in another town). Locally, the gasoline prices have been quickly dropping. Two days ago, it was $2.89/gal. Yesterday it was $2.85, then $2.83 this morning, and now $2.79 this evening.
 
  • #19
I guess that's why the line at the gas station looked so insanely long the other day. I didn't look at the sign with the prices so didn't realize it was dropping again. Ah, the excitement of gambling on when to fill up the car with gas again. Do I top it now in case it goes back up next week, or do I wait for it to be empty and gamble it'll keep dropping in price?
 
  • #20
waht said:
Is it safe to say that the gas prices were manipulated rather than are a result of supply-demand, or global recession?
It is always safe to say things that are popular. But if you mean "Is it true to say..." then no.

In fact, the massive drop in oil prices in the last month or so was one of the first real indicators of a possible recession.
 
  • #21
Moonbear said:
I guess that's why the line at the gas station looked so insanely long the other day. I didn't look at the sign with the prices so didn't realize it was dropping again. Ah, the excitement of gambling on when to fill up the car with gas again. Do I top it now in case it goes back up next week, or do I wait for it to be empty and gamble it'll keep dropping in price?
Yeah, you can save enough money to buy a cup of coffee with your change!

I'll never understand the mob mentality.
But alternative fuels are only that, alternative fuels. They aren't alternatives for all the other uses of petroleum, they just take the pressure off using it up so fast. It's really to the oil industry's advantage to encourage alternative fuel usage to preserve their own industry longer. If we start developing alternative methods of manufacturing things like plastics and such that are derived from petroleum products, then they'll have to worry.
I've never heard that before, but it is a good point: If car copmanies and oil companies push ethanol, they can keep selling conventional cars and oil. If they push electric or fuel cell vehicles (and succeed), then sales of conventional vehicles and their fuels start to decrease.
 
  • #22
Bioplastics are a form of plastics derived from renewable biomass sources, such as vegetable oil, corn starch, pea starch [1] or microbiota [2], rather than traditional plastics which are derived from petroleum. They are used either as a direct replacement for traditional plastics or as blends with traditional plastics. There is no international agreement on how much bio-derived content is required to use the term bioplastic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic
 
  • #23
Ivan Seeking said:

Your reference is a Wikipedia article that clearly states it needs references? C'mon Ivan, I expect better when discussing these things with you. Though, even your wikipedia source claims this is only a very new area of development, and points out a lot of problems of the bioplastics. I'm not particularly thinking of replacements for plastic bags, I already know what those are, they're called paper bags. I'm thinking of plastics that can spare me from lugging around a 30 lb laptop without melting or deforming or cracking or just plain falling apart.
 
  • #24
Moonbear said:
Your reference is a Wikipedia article that clearly states it needs references? C'mon Ivan, I expect better when discussing these things with you.

It was just a casual reference. Bioplastics have been an area of interest for quite some time now.

Though, even your wikipedia source claims this is only a very new area of development, and points out a lot of problems of the bioplastics. I'm not particularly thinking of replacements for plastic bags, I already know what those are, they're called paper bags. I'm thinking of plastics that can spare me from lugging around a 30 lb laptop without melting or deforming or cracking or just plain falling apart.

More and more uses are being found for next-generation plastics made from such plants as sweet potatoes and sugarcane. Bioplastics are environmentally friendly because, compared with traditional plastics, their production results in the emission of less carbon dioxide, which is thought to cause global warming. They are also biodegradable, meaning that the material returns to its natural state when buried in the ground. Bioplastics are already being used in automobile interiors and in cases for consumer electronics. In 2002 Japan ratified the Kyoto Protocol, which requires countries to reduce their emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, and Japanese corporations will have to play their part in achieving this goal. This means that the use of bioplastics, seen as an effective way of cutting carbon dioxide emissions, is likely to continue to expand.
Toyota Becomes First Automaker to Use Bioplastics
Toyota Motor Corp. became the first automaker in the world to use bioplastics in the manufacture of auto parts, employing them in the cover for the spare tire in the Raum, a new model that went on sale this May. The bioplastic used for the tire cover is made from plants, such as sweet potatoes and sugarcane. Enzymes are used to break starch in the plants down into glucose, which is fermented and made into lactic acid. This lactic acid is polymerized and converted into a plastic called polylactic acid, which can be used in the manufacture of products after being heated and shaped.

When ordinary plastics made from petroleum are burned, they release the carbon dioxide contained in the petroleum into the atmosphere, leading to global warming. Bioplastics, however, are made from plants that grow by absorbing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, so when they are burned, the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere does not change. Because petroleum is not used, emissions of carbon dioxide are cut, and a contribution is made to the fight against global warming.

In addition, bioplastics are biodegradable. If something made of bioplastic is buried in the ground, microorganisms will break it down into carbon dioxide and water. Since this material is environment-friendly, interest in bioplastics is high, and the materials have been the subject of research and development both in Japan and abroad. Bags made of bioplastic can be thrown away and buried with other biodegradable garbage, and there are a growing number of other uses for the materials as well, including artificial fibers, medical products, and construction materials.

Toyota Motor is building a plant to undertake test production of bioplastic at a factory in Japan, with production due to begin in August 2004. The company plans to produce 1,000 tons of bioplastic annually, which will be used not just in car parts but in many other plastic products as well. Toyota also plans to use bioplastics in the construction of the exhibition pavilions at the 2005 World Exposition, Aichi, Japan, so that no construction waste is generated when the pavilions are dismantled at the end of the event. A spokesperson for Toyota Motor's Biotechnology and Afforestation Business Division expresses high hopes for the future of bioplastics, saying, "The inside of a car gets very hot and is exposed to shocks while the vehicle is running. If bioplastics can be used in this tough environment, they can be used in ordinary household products or anywhere else."

Also Used in Electronic Devices
Mitsubishi Plastics has already succeeded in raising the heat-resistance and strength of polylactic acid by combining it with other biodegradable plastics and filler, and the result was used to make the plastic casing of a new version of Sony Corp.'s Walkman released last fall. Mitsubishi Plastics had previously looked at bioplastic as something that would mainly be used in the manufacture of casings and wrappings, but the company now feels confident that this revolutionary material has entered a new phase in its development in which more complex applications will be found.

NEC Corp., meanwhile, is turning its attention to kenaf, a type of fibrous plant native to tropical areas of Africa and Asia that is known to grow more than five meters in just half a year. A mixture of polylactic acid and kenaf fiber that is 20% fiber by weight allows for a plastic that is strong enough and heat resistant enough to be used in electronic goods. The goal is to begin using this new plastic in real products, such as computer cases, within two years.

At present approximately 14 million tons of plastic are produced in Japan annually. Though bioplastics and other environment-friendly plastics account for only about 10,000 tons of this, the market for bioplastics is expected to grow by 400% to ¥20 billion ($181.9 million at ¥110 to the dollar) by 2005.
http://web-japan.org/trends/science/sci031212.html
 
  • #25
Here is the problem that I see: We will be hard-pressed to produce enough fuel from alternative sources. Bioplastics will be an entirely new demand. But, it would appear that the demand for crude for plastics, as compared to fuels, is fairly small.

The best estimate I could find says that about 4 percent of the world's annual oil production of some 84.5 million barrels per day is used as feedstock for plastic, and another 4 percent or so provides the energy to transform the feedstock into handy plastic.
http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2007/03/14/plastics/
 
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