News China's Military Drone Program: What Now?

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The discussion centers on concerns regarding China's military drone program and its implications for global security. Participants debate whether the proliferation of military drones is necessary or beneficial, with some arguing that it perpetuates a cycle of arms competition among nations. Others express fears about the potential for increased surveillance and erosion of civil liberties as drone technology becomes more widespread. The conversation highlights the complexity of defining "good" versus "bad" uses of drones, emphasizing the need for careful consideration of their societal impacts. Ultimately, the thread reflects a deep concern about the future of warfare and privacy in an increasingly drone-filled world.
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Is this what the world really needs right now. China with thousands of military drones?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/03/china-drone-program_n_3207392.html
 
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DiracPool said:
Is this what the world really needs right now. China with thousands of military drones?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/03/china-drone-program_n_3207392.html
Sure - why not. Keeping up with the other guys.


It's a matter of drone envy, or some guys have to have cool (or cooler) stuff to feel manly.
 
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DiracPool said:
Is this what the world really needs right now. China with thousands of military drones?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/03/china-drone-program_n_3207392.html

You ask if China having thousands of military drones is what the world needs now. I ask, why not? Do you think that only the "good guys" should be allowed to have (and use) military drones to kill others?
 
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Massive deployment of drones gives a few practical problems. Our government once asked if our fighter fleet could be replaced by drones doing the same job. I had to help working out that question. Obviously the result was negative, for many reasons. No massive drone raids.
 
Bobbywhy said:
You ask if China having thousands of military drones is what the world needs now. I ask, why not? Do you think that only the "good guys" should be allowed to have (and use) military drones to kill others?

You ask, why not? I ask, why don't I have a few drones in my garage? Why don't you? My point is, where does it end? There are some obnoxious barking dogs in my neighborhood that really bug the hell out of me while I'm in my room, snuggled up with my laptop trying to formulate my TOE. You bet I'd like to wheel out one of those drones and take care of those dogs "stealthily."

Why don't I, cause I don't have a drone, that's why. Now you could say, well you don't need a drone to take care of the dogs, Diracpool, "drones don't kill dogs, people kill dogs." And I'd say, you know, you're right, but it's a hell of a lot easier to take care of the dogs with a drone than it is to trudge all over the neighborhood in my Army fatigues. I can do it right here from my laptop while I'm waiting for my cosmology simulation applet to load.

So, hopefully you retrieved from the above parable/allegory that I am for weapons reduction and even elimination as a global principle, as opposed to the idea that the world is a safer place when eveyone is walking around "packing" a firearm to protect themselves. That's just me, though.

And yes, I do think that the 'only the "good guys" should be allowed to have (and use) military drones to kill others.' Better that than the bad guys having them, no? As long as the good guys are actually good and are using the drones in a larger effort for peace and eventual disarmament.

Edit:
BTW, no dogs were harmed in the making of this post:smile:
 
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Trying to divide the world into good guys and bad guys is dangerous thinking. It blinds you to the bad actions of the good guys and realistic impressions of the bad guys. For example; there are many civilians in countries like Pakistan who would not consider the US good guys with regards to drone use, for good reasons.
 
Ryan_m_b said:
Trying to divide the world into good guys and bad guys is dangerous thinking. It blinds you to the bad actions of the good guys and realistic impressions of the bad guys. For example; there are many civilians in countries like Pakistan who would not consider the US good guys with regards to drone use, for good reasons.

Yes, I understand that. My feeling is that they should be phased out altogether. But two wrongs don't make a right, at least I don't think so. Ever see the show "Watchbird" with Sean Astin? A cautionary tale. Here's the intro..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CjIYomjZvAE
 
If the US continues to expand their capability, which they do, it's hardly unthinkable that countries that feel that their interests are threatened by the US, will want to match that capability. I scoff at the idea of Americans having a problem with Chinese armament. Pot, meet kettle.
 
DiracPool said:
Yes, I understand that. My feeling is that they should be phased out altogether. But two wrongs don't make a right...
Er, what exactly do you find "wrong" about drones? As weapons systems go, they are fairly mundane. If anything, the use of drones is a positive thing for the civility of war because drones carry only small, accurate weapons and so limit collateral damage better than similar larger weapons systems. Plus, of course, they keep pilots out of harms' way.

I have no problem whatsoever with China developing drones.
 
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  • #10
russ_watters said:
...the civility of war...
I'm nore worried by people or societies that can use phrases like that, apparently without irony, than by what specific weapons they have available.
 
  • #11
Astronuc said:
Sure - why not. Keeping up with the other guys.


It's a matter of drone envy, or some guys have to have cool (or cooler) stuff to feel manly.
LOL astro this is brilliant. Big boy play pen of sorts eh?
 
  • #12
I don't see a problem with drones over the policies and practices of their use.
 
  • #13
AlephZero said:
I'm nore worried by people or societies that can use phrases like that, apparently without irony, than by what specific weapons they have available.
Why? It is a fact that in terms of casualty rates, torture, etc., war has gotten more civil.
 
  • #14
russ_watters said:
Er, what exactly do you find "wrong" about drones? As weapons systems go, they are fairly mundane. If anything, the use of drones is a positive thing for the civility of war because drones carry only small, accurate weapons and so limit collateral damage better than similar larger weapons systems. Plus, of course, they keep pilots out of harms' way.

I have no problem whatsoever with China developing drones.

In the larger picture, it really is more the "slippery slope" aspect of China "ramping up" their production of drones that led me to create this thread. It's kind of like the firearm issue in the USA, once they're in and institutionalized, you're not getting them out. But it goes further than that and this is where the slippery-slope aspect rears its ugly head. Forget about international military use of the drones for a minute, think about the domestic surveillance capabilities of these drones. Do you really think this technology is not going to be implemented soon? If not already. And my guess is that it will be implemented in China sooner than in the US. So, see, I care about the Chinese, too:smile:

Think about it, there's already a camera on every streetcorner in London, and half of the light signals in WA state have "photosafe" camera's to take a picture of your "rolling stops" so you get a nice robotic ticket in the mail every other month, and of course it goes further than that. Why would we be so naive to think that thousands of drones won't soon be flying over China and the US under the guise of some "Amber Alert" crisis or some terrorist crisis, etc. This is how it all starts, and once they're up there, they're not coming down. Where is that eventually going to lead? I don't know, but I don't think it's going to be good. Again, flip on the movie "Watchbird" as an enjoyable break from your stressful day. Here's where it could lead. Yeah, I know its exaggerated and science fiction, but the idea is there that makes you think...

Plus, it's got Stephen Hawking in it!:-p
 
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  • #15
If you believe having drones is bad thing, regardless of the use, then I am going to have to disagree.

If you believe that using drones to target civilians (lethal or non-lethal), I can definitely see your point. Although, I don't think it'll be possible to draw a clear dividing line with this issue.
 
  • #16
MarneMath said:
If you believe having drones is bad thing, regardless of the use, then I am going to have to disagree.

If you believe that using drones to target civilians (lethal or non-lethal), I can definitely see your point. Although, I don't think it'll be possible to draw a clear dividing line with this issue.

It's not really even so much the drones per se, that I'm concerned about. It's more this movement towards and Orwellian 1984 society that concerns me. I don't know if you feel it coming, but I do. Technology has recently hit some threshold, some bifurcation point, whereby we are being evesdropped on to an alarming degree. The concept of an aerial drone is just an iconic manifestation of this Orwellian trend. The combination of drones, facial recognition software, and license plate readers are going to, and already have, put severe constraints on our privacy and civil liberties.

Is this paranoia? I don't think so. I share a car with a female relative, registered to her, who had their license suspended because she forgot to pay a ticket. It wasn't long after that that I got pulled over because some squad car with a license plate reader tagged my car. Scared the hell out me, what did I do? Nothing it seems, because when the cop came up to my window and saw I was male, he said, "Oh, I guess you're not so in so." And let me go. I already told you about the "photosafe" cameras everywhere that I also have been stung by. The end result is that I sometimes feel paralyzed to do anything, since I have the sense that I'm always being watched. So that paranoia is real, at least, but that's not irrational paranoia, that's paranoia imposed on me by unrestrained surveillance technology and a society that's too passive or powerless to speak up about it.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, even withstanding focused military applications, simply the psychological effects on peoples in a society should be considered before we happily encourage every country and their neighbor to litter the sky with UAV-drones, which seems to be what many of the posters in this thread think is the right thing to do. That's all.

Edit: BTW, let me ask when the last time you had a drivers license picture taken? I've always smiled in my pictures but the last time I went in I was told not to smile. In fact, there was a sign up that said "no smiling." I asked why with no response but kept prying. Finally they told me that smiling interferes with the facial recognition software that government agencies use. Nice to know that the drones are going to make good use of my frown at some point:frown:
 
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  • #17
DiracPool said:
BTW, let me ask when the last time you had a drivers license picture taken? I've always smiled in my pictures but the last time I went in I was told not to smile. In fact, there was a sign up that said "no smiling." I asked why with no response but kept prying. Finally they told me that smiling interferes with the facial recognition software that government agencies use. Nice to know that the drones are going to make good use of my frown at some point:frown:

I smiled for my license (obtained 14 June 2011). No one had a problem with it. Most of the time I get asked to smile whenever I have to show my ID since I had long hair at the time. Apparently they know it's me from the smile. :P
 
  • #18
I've long thought there's a logical disconnect in our behavior.

The idea behind our second amendment is defense against creeping tyranny.
Yet we only advocate it only for individual citizens on intranational level, not for individual nations on international level. 20th century should have taught us better.

'Best defense is a good offense" - Hitler
"Speak softly and carry a big stick" - Roosevelt
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" - Jefferson
"...‘Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valour, and be in readiness for the conflict; .." - Churchill

I fear we are mis-named. Homo Bellicosus might be more apt.
Sorry, that's just the way it is with large brained mammals. Maybe the dolphins will do better with the planet after we're gone.

An aside - fifty years ago I read a remarkably prescient sci-fi short story about drones. It was by Robert Sheckley and is now on Gutenberg , so I think it's public domain.
If you get a few minutes you might enjoy it.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29579/29579-h/29579-h.htm
The Project Gutenberg EBook of Watchbird, by Robert Sheckley

This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or
re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.net
 
  • #19
more_accurate.png


It relates.
 
  • #20
DiracPool said:
Edit: BTW, let me ask when the last time you had a drivers license picture taken? I've always smiled in my pictures but the last time I went in I was told not to smile. In fact, there was a sign up that said "no smiling." I asked why with no response but kept prying. Finally they told me that smiling interferes with the facial recognition software that government agencies use. Nice to know that the drones are going to make good use of my frown at some point:frown:

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/bmv-don-t-smile-wear-glasses

It's not that big a deal. If anything you now know that when you smile drones can't identify you. Tilting your head to the side also makes them think you aren't a person
 
  • #21
The Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles is restricting glasses, hats, scarves -- and even smiles -- in driver's license photographs.
The new rules imposed last month were deemed necessary so that facial recognition software can spot fraudulent license applications, said BMV spokesman Dennis Rosebrough.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/bmv-don-t-smile-wear-glasses

Yeah, right, your digital non-smiling photo is going directly into the drone database. Are you kidding?:-p
 
  • #22
This all falls under the REAL ID ACT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

I hope they don't screw it up the way they did the no fly list which in turn gets it's information from another list.:confused:
 
  • #23
DiracPool said:
In the larger picture, it really is more the "slippery slope" aspect of China "ramping up" their production of drones that led me to create this thread. It's kind of like the firearm issue in the USA, once they're in and institutionalized, you're not getting them out. But it goes further than that and this is where the slippery-slope aspect rears its ugly head. Forget about international military use of the drones for a minute, think about the domestic surveillance capabilities of these drones.
Ok, well at least I get the point now - this really has nothing to do with China, it's just that any story about Drones makes you think about "1984", regardless of context. But anyway...
Do you really think this technology is not going to be implemented soon? [for domestic surveillance] If not already.
Probably already has and I'm in favor of it. Cheaper than a helicopter.
This is how it all starts, and once they're up there, they're not coming down. Where is that eventually going to lead? I don't know, but I don't think it's going to be good. Again, flip on the movie "Watchbird" as an enjoyable break from your stressful day. Here's where it could lead. Yeah, I know its exaggerated and science fiction, but the idea is there that makes you think...

[separate post]
It's not really even so much the drones per se, that I'm concerned about. It's more this movement towards and Orwellian 1984 society that concerns me. I don't know if you feel it coming, but I do. Technology has recently hit some threshold, some bifurcation point, whereby we are being evesdropped on to an alarming degree.
That's paranoia fed in part by a misunderstanding of "1984". "1984" wasn't about invasive technology, it was about invasive government. The technology needed to bring a "1984" degree of government evasiveness has been available for decades and yet, western governments haven't implemented it for that purpose. Why? Because they value individual rights.

You're really worrying about nothing here.
 
  • #24
The Opening Post of this thread asked about China getting and using military drones. I interpreted this to mean the military use of drones as weapons.

Our discussion here has since bifurcated to now include drones used for surveillance in the USA. Because the subjects are so different I suggest a separate thread be started for surveillance drones.

Meanwhile, a new jihadi magazine called “Azan” set up by militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan has appealed to Muslims around the world to come up with technology to hack into or manipulate drones, describing this as one of their most important priorities.
http://www.voanews.com/content/jihadi-magazine-azaz-global-jihad-drones-pakistan/1655632.html
 
  • #25
Back in the 19th century, when Maxim and Gatling developed the machine gun, only elite western militaries could get them. Now they are ubiquitous. Someday the drone, too, will or may be commonplace among the world's military and paramilitary organizations.

Maybe the question should be about the policies regarding their use? Right now, it appears they are being used to assassinate militants in foreign countries, together with a handful of collateral casualties. But what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if China, or someone else, were to assassinate one of its subversives here, together with a few Americans collaterally injured? Would that be acceptable? I can see how it might be under certain circumstances, but some might say "I told you so" about the legacy of unintended consequences.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
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  • #26
Dotini said:
Maybe the question should be about the policies regarding their use? Right now, it appears they are being used to assassinate militants in foreign countries, together with a handful of collateral casualties.
"Assassinate" is, by definition, murder (illegal). Killing high value military personnel (leaders) in a war is not assassination. It is a wholly inappropriate word choice.

And it isn't actually the primary use anymore. Since the number of drones is increasing and the number of high value militant targets is decreasing, they have taken more of a general air-to-ground, close-air-support type role.
But what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if China, or someone else, were to assassinate one of its subversives here, together with a few Americans collaterally injured?
Does not compute. You're comparing the US to Pakistan in the War on Terror. The US is nothing like Pakistan, so a Chinese attack on the US could never be anything like a US attack on/in Pakistan. We use drones in areas of Pakistan that are part of Pakistan on paper only. The Pakistani government has little or no control over the tribal regions where we are fighting.
 
  • #27
russ_watters said:
You're comparing the US to Pakistan in the War on Terror. The US is nothing like Pakistan, so a Chinese attack on the US could never be anything like a US attack on/in Pakistan. We use drones in areas of Pakistan that are part of Pakistan on paper only. The Pakistani government has little or no control over the tribal regions where we are fighting.

I do not see the distinction you try to make here. Whether or not Pakistan is controlling these regions, it has clearly disagreed to drone attacks and ignoring these requests is clearly a violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan. The UN special rapporteur for the topic of protecting human rights while countering terrorism also explicitly stresses this opinion. The continued drone attacks can therefore not be justified by some international agreement that they are necessary, but just by national interest.

Therefore, I do not see the difference. If China hypothetically decided to kill someone using drones on US territory, that would constitute a violation of US sovereignty. China will of course state that they are the 'good' guys and they only targeted 'bad' guys. They might be right in thinking that. The US may well be thinking the same right now and they might be right in thinking that right now, but nevertheless I do not see any formal justification for drone operations on foreign territory without consent of that state or support of the international community, no matter what the circumstances are.
 
  • #28
And it isn't actually the primary use anymore. Since the number of drones is increasing and the number of high value militant targets is decreasing, they have taken more of a general air-to-ground, close-air-support type role.

huh? HVT are decreasing? Where did you get this information? The only way you'll know this is if you accessed a certain database you shouldn't be authorized to access nor publish information about. So...are you just 'speculating."
 
  • #29
Cthugha said:
I do not see the distinction you try to make here. Whether or not Pakistan is controlling these regions, it has clearly disagreed to drone attacks and ignoring these requests is clearly a violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan.
Agreed, but at the same time, Pakistan's harboring of the militants (whether they really want them there or not) is a violation of our sovereignty.
Therefore, I do not see the difference. If China hypothetically decided to kill someone using drones on US territory, that would constitute a violation of US sovereignty. China will of course state that they are the 'good' guys and they only targeted 'bad' guys.
If the US had an infestation of terrorists who controlled a segment of our territory and were continuously attacking China, with our government helpless to stop it, I'd be more upset about those issues than with China going after them.
 
  • #30
MarneMath said:
huh? HVT are decreasing? Where did you get this information? The only way you'll know this is if you accessed a certain database you shouldn't be authorized to access nor publish information about. So...are you just 'speculating."
Stats on who is being targeted are in the public domain, but I'm sure there is a level of speculation associated with them. But the issue of the rising number of strikes (edit - although that seems to now be reversing with the drawdown of the Afghanistan war in the past year) with a smaller fraction of "high value targets" is the relevant fact. From there, it is a presumption/logical deduction that the number of available high value targets is decreasing, but since the two sides are of the same coin, I don't see the distinction as being worthwhile. It isn't a hair I care to split.

Some stats and discussion of the issue:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2/20/AR2011022003785.html?sid=ST2011022100308
 
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  • #31
russ_watters said:
Stats on who is being targeted are in the public domain, but I'm sure there is a level of speculation associated with them. But the issue of the rising number of strikes with a smaller fraction of "high value targets" is the relevant fact. From there, it is a presumption/logical deduction that the number of available high value targets is decreasing, but since the two sides are of the same coin, I don't see the distinction as being worthwhile. It isn't a hair I care to split.

Negative. Some HVT are in the public domain, the vast majority are not in the public domain. There's a lot of that goes on with targeting that you and the general population are ignorant on and that's ok. However, it isn't splitting hairs. It's the difference between well known HVT and HPT that you can look up, and the thousands of HVT who are not authorized for release. However, assuming that all HVT are listed in the public domain and any joe can look it up, there is no indication that the number is decreasing. As far as I am concerned, the numbers just shift up one and a previous unreleased name moves up. So, let's not spread some 'locally deduced' conclusions as fact.

Let's face it, when we bomb targets in Pakistan, it's an assassination. We hunt them, intercept chatter, set up traps, and eliminate targets in a Sovereign nation, which I'll struggle to say is legal under international law, so I have no other word to use but assassinate. It's not like we set up a battle and attempt to capture them and they just get killed. We purposefully choose to end their life. I'm not arguing for the right or wrong about this, but if you're going to justify these actions, you need to acknowledge what they are and not hide under false pretense.
 
  • #32
MarneMath said:
Negative. Some HVT are in the public domain, the vast majority are not in the public domain. There's a lot of that goes on with targeting that you and the general population are ignorant on and that's ok. However, it isn't splitting hairs. It's the difference between well known HVT and HPT that you can look up, and the thousands of HVT who are not authorized for release. However, assuming that all HVT are listed in the public domain and any joe can look it up, there is no indication that the number is decreasing. As far as I am concerned, the numbers just shift up one and a previous unreleased name moves up. So, let's not spread some 'locally deduced' conclusions as fact.
Again, it is a fact that the fraction of high value targets - that we are being told about - has been going down. I didn't make it up, it is in stats provided by the military. I'm sure there are additional strikes and targets neither of us knows about and I agree we shouldn't be speculating about those. Your understanding of the publicly known stats is factually wrong.
Let's face it, when we bomb targets in Pakistan, it's an assassination.
As said above, that's a misuse of the word "assassination".
We hunt them, intercept chatter, set up traps, and eliminate targets in a Sovereign nation, which I'll struggle to say is legal under international law, so I have no other word to use but assassinate.
Would you still call it an "assassination" if we used bigger bombs or would you just call it a "bombing"?
It's not like we set up a battle and attempt to capture them and they just get killed.
The crime of sovereignty violation and the crime of murder are two utterly different things. If we capture a terrorist in Pakistan, the sovereignty violation is exactly the same as if we'd killed him. It isn't the killing itself that is illegal, it is the incursion.
 
  • #33
Again, it is a fact that the fraction of high value targets - that we are being told about - has been going down. I didn't make it up, it is in stats provided by the military. I'm sure there are additional strikes and targets neither of us knows about and I agree we shouldn't be speculating about those. Your understanding of the publicly known stats is factually wrong.
Every time we talk I ask you to not bold, underline and italicize words when talking to me? Do you plan to ever honor this request? Provide a source to this a fact, thanks.
The crime of sovereignty violation and the crime of murder are two utterly different things. If we capture a terrorist in Pakistan, the sovereignty violation is exactly the same as if we'd killed him. It isn't the killing itself that is illegal, it is the incursion.
Sure your first statement is absolutely right. However, you fail to acknowledge the difference between a random American going to Pakistan to kill a person vs a government going there to kill a person. So yes it does violate the sovereignty of the nation involved. Just because you believed that the killing was justifiable, doesn't mean that a random person Pakistan feels just like you. I'm sure if we were to look at a poll, we would see that most people there believe that we do violate their sovereignty on a daily bases. In summary, just because you fail to understand how this action violates a nation sovereignty doesn't mean that other people cannot and do not feel that it does. You're entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to international law, your opinion doesn't really matter. It seems like the U.N. agrees.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/15/us-un-drones-idUSBRE92E0Y320130315

As for your comment regarding size of bomb. I've seen 5,000 lb bombs (GBU-28) dropped on 3 guys. I emphasis the word bombs with an s. Clearly, I don't care about the size of the bomb, it's the action I'm arguing.
 
  • #34
MarneMath said:
Every time we talk I ask you to not bold, underline and italicize words when talking to me? Do you plan to ever honor this request?
No, I don't.
Provide a source to this a fact, thanks.
I did. A quote from the source linked above:

"Even so, the data suggest that the ratio of senior terrorism suspects being killed is declining at a substantial rate. The New America Foundation recently concluded that 12 "militant leaders" were killed by drone strikes in 2010, compared with 10 in 2008. The number of strikes soared over that period, from 33 to 118."
Sure your first statement is absolutely right. However, you fail to acknowledge the difference between a random American going to Pakistan to kill a person vs a government going there to kill a person.
Huh? What difference is that? Explain please.
Just because you believed that the killing was justifiable, doesn't mean that a random person Pakistan feels just like you. I'm sure if we were to look at a poll...
I don't care how a random person in Pakistan feels, nor is it relevant to the conversation. Right and wrong, legal and illegal are not based on feelings or polls! Sheesh!
...just because you fail to understand how this action violates a nation sovereignty...
Er, what? Maybe you should reread my posts because I understand completely how this violates Pakistan's sovereignty. You are arguing against something I didn't say.
As for your comment regarding size of bomb. I've seen 5,000 lb bombs (GBU-28) dropped on 3 guys. I emphasis the word bombs with an s. Clearly, I don't care about the size of the bomb, it's the action I'm arguing.
My question was whether you were less likely to call that an "assassination" because a bigger bomb was used. What was it called when we bombed Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam war, for example? Assassination? I don't think so.
 
  • #35
No, I don't.
Any reason you don't wish to help facilitate a less hostile dialog?


I did. A quote from the source linked above:

"Even so, the data suggest that the ratio of senior terrorism suspects being killed is declining at a substantial rate. The New America Foundation recently concluded that 12 "militant leaders" were killed by drone strikes in 2010, compared with 10 in 2008. The number of strikes soared over that period, from 33 to 118."

It would be appreciated if you mention that you added a source after your initial posting. I was really hoping you weren't referring to this. I really hope I don't have to explain the difference between the number of people killed by drones versus the number of HVT that exist. Thanks, you have shown that maybe drones are being used less to kill HVT not that there exist less HVT. Which is completely not the point I was making. So, again, i'll ask for a source that shows there exist less HVT.




Huh? What difference is that? Explain please.
Besides the fact that a nation can declare war and mobilized mass weapons of destructions? Yea, I see no difference my mistake.



My question was whether you were less likely to call that an "assassination" because a bigger bomb was used. What was it called when we bombed Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam war, for example? Assassination? I don't think so.
Bad analog. In Vietnam and Cambodia, we fought typically battalion and platoon sized elements. Clearly, I don't consider that an assassinations by my first reply. (Recall the whole, "setting up a battle part.) However, if we targeted individual leadership, then yes that would be an assassination. Regardless if it was in Vietnam or Cambodia.

I like the m-w.com definition of assassinate.

Definition of ASSASSINATE


1

: to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously


2

: to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons

I think bomb from the sky is pretty unexpectedly and treacherous of a way to be killed!




I don't care how a random person in Pakistan feels, nor is it relevant to the conversation. Right and wrong, legal and illegal are not based on feelings or polls! Sheesh!
Well, let's not state the obvious. The fact of the matter is that these actions the United States are taking are illegal. It harms our national security by radicalizing more of the population. So maybe we should care just a little bit more about how some random person in Pakistan feels because that person may just very well be the next guy saying Allah Akbar as he drives his car into some US point of interest.
 
  • #36
russ_watters said:
"Even so, the data suggest that the ratio of senior terrorism suspects being killed is declining at a substantial rate. The New America Foundation recently concluded that 12 "militant leaders" were killed by drone strikes in 2010, compared with 10 in 2008. The number of strikes soared over that period, from 33 to 118."
Fact: The number of "militant leaders" killed INCREASED, not decreased. This is in direct contradiction to your claim that
the number of high value militant targets is decreasing
If the number of targets was decreasing I would expect to see less of them being hit, not more. The fact that they decided to blow up a bunch of other people as well is irrelevant
 
  • #37
MarneMath said:
Any reason you don't wish to help facilitate a less hostile dialog?
There is nothing hostile about emphasizing things for someone who keeps missing them. Clearly, I should have also bolded the part of my post about the US violating Pakistan's sovereignty so you wouldn't miss it.
Thanks, you have shown that maybe drones are being used less to kill HVT not that there exist less HVT. Which is completely not the point I was making. So, again, i'll ask for a source that shows there exist less HVT.
Not my point or even an important issue and not a hair I care to split. That's as far as I'm taking it.
Besides the fact that a nation can declare war and mobilized mass weapons of destructions? Yea, I see no difference my mistake.
I suspect that this is a part of your mistake about my stance on the "sovereignty" issue so there is nowhere else to go with this either. If you reread and get it sorted out (and still disagree with me), you can try again. But I really don't know what you could be after beyond just misreading me.

Helpful hint though: "less hostile dialogue" is better facilitated by explaining yourself than by sarcastic one-liners.
Definition of ASSASSINATE

1: to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously

2: to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons

I think bomb from the sky is pretty unexpectedly and treacherous of a way to be killed!
Um, ok, so you don't think definition #2 applies at all then, right? Only definition #1? That's why you didn't comment on it?

I'm not sure how "treacherously" applies here but my point - my perception - was that people use the word "assassinate" to highlight their opinion that the killings are illegal. You quoted it, but then didn't comment on it, so I take it to mean that you agree with me that the killings themselves are not illegal, just the incursions into foreign sovereign territory to do it are? That is what this entire line of argument is about, so you really should be explicit about this most critical part of the issue instead of dancing around it.

Let me say it again, explicitly: killing the targets of these drone attacks is not illegal. That's my beef with using the word "assassinate".
 
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  • #38
Office_Shredder said:
Fact: The number of "militant leaders" killed INCREASED, not decreased. This is in direct contradiction to your claim that

If the number of targets was decreasing I would expect to see less of them being hit, not more. The fact that they decided to blow up a bunch of other people as well is irrelevant
Actually, I would expect the number to follow the ratio because more drones in the sky means more eyes tracking high value targets and more opportunities to kill them. Since the ratio has dropped drastically, it must indicate either a purposeful change in targets or a decrease in the availability of those targets or a combination of both. But again, which one of those is actually the case isn't an important piece of the puzzle here, so let's just drop it.
 
  • #39
Not my point or even an important issue and not a hair I care to split. That's as far as I'm taking it.
Then why even bring it up?

I suspect that this is a part of your mistake about my stance on the "sovereignty" issue so there is nowhere else to go with this either. If you reread and get it sorted out (and still disagree with me), you can try again. But I really don't know what you could be after beyond just misreading me.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you did literally ask what is the difference between a random American (not associated with the government) going into Pakistan and committing a murder, versus a military drone conducting a tactical strike? Do you really not see a difference between this? One is clearly a person committing a crime in a another country where he would be subject to that nation's laws. The other has the potential and has in this case set up international incident that harms international relations that can eventually lead to more broad and overarching actions.

Um, ok, so you don't think definition #2 applies at all then, right? Only definition #1?

I'm not sure how "treacherously" applies here but my point - my assumption - was that people use the word "assassinate" to highlight their opinion that the killings are illegal. You quoted it, but then didn't comment on it, so I take it to mean that you agree with me that the killings themselves are not illegal, just the incursions into foreign sovereign territory to do it are? That is what this entire line of argument is about, so you really should be explicit about this most critical part of the issue.
Like all definitions with multiple definitions, definitions may obviously apply to different events. I still fail to see how you cannot define individual targeting as an assassination. Even applying definition 2, I would still have no problem calling it an assassination. Once again, I wasn't arguing for the right or wrong about these actions. I believe the killing is illegal because to do so you must violate international law. If the targets where in kwost or mai'wan, then blow them up all day long, but once they are out of region where we have no international consent or approval to operate then it becomes an illegal action. I don't think I've been unclear on that at all.
 
  • #40
russ_watters said:
Actually, I would expect the number to follow the ratio because more drones in the sky means more eyes tracking high value targets and more opportunities to kill them. Since the ratio has dropped drastically, it must indicate either a purposeful change in targets or a decrease in the availability of those targets or a combination of both. But again, which one of those is actually the case isn't an important piece of the puzzle here, so let's just drop it.

It's a very important piece in the puzzle. A change in targeting directive is the key aspect of this whole discussion. What is an accept level for any military to use drones and who can they target? Is it acceptable for China to target drug dealers in Burma? It is acceptable for Burma to target terrorist in Burma? Is it acceptable to target political dissents in Burma? To say that a targeting directive is a non-factor is clearly avoiding the issue. The issue is targeting directive. What are we, as a society, going to say is acceptable action for us and acceptable action for other countries. Drones exist and that fact has to be accepted. What we now have to do is determine how can we use drones in a responsible matter while at the same time following guidelines we would want other countries to follow.
 
  • #41
MarneMath said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but you did literally ask what is the difference between a random American (not associated with the government) going into Pakistan and committing a murder, versus a military drone conducting a tactical strike?
Yes, you are wrong. I asked what difference I "failed to acknowledge". I still don't have a clue as to why you brought up the comparison. I don't see the relevance.
Do you really not see a difference between this? One is clearly a person committing a crime in a another country where he would be subject to that nation's laws. The other has the potential and has in this case set up international incident that harms international relations that can eventually lead to more broad and overarching actions.
That's all fine. So what? You brought it up, not me, so you're going to have to explain the relevance!
Even applying definition 2, I would still have no problem calling it an assassination. Once again, I wasn't arguing for the right or wrong about these actions.
Those two sentences contradict each other and that's the point of my disagreement on the use of the term. Definition #2 is that the action is murder and therefore by definition wrong. My sole disagreement on the use of the term is from the fact that these targeted killings are not murder. If you don't think they are, then I suggest using a different term to avoid confusion.
 
  • #42
russ_watters said:
Agreed, but at the same time, Pakistan's harboring of the militants (whether they really want them there or not) is a violation of our sovereignty.

Yes, I understand that position. However, I fail to see how that justifies the measures taken from a legal point of view. The formal way is of course to have consent of the UN before acting. I also do not see any justification in applying article 51 of the UN Charter (the one about self defence before the UN comes to some decision) here. This article does not justify preemptive war or this kind of drone war.

I understand that the current international legislation lacks some clear policy on how to deal with this kind of asymmetric threats. Looking at Israel where the situation is even more complicated as the distances are small, makes that clear. I also understand that the US have the feeling that there is some need to act. However, to cite what you just wrote:
russ_watters said:
Right and wrong, legal and illegal are not based on feelings or polls!

But to be honest I also do not see an easy solution. However, I think the current US way of stretching self defense as justifying preemptive strikes is dangerous. If adopted as a general policy, it can be easily misused to start a seemingly justified war by enabling countries to blame foreign countries of choice for terrorist attacks or other destabilizing actions without prior consent of the UN - independent of whether the accusations are adequate or not. I think the intentions of the US are honest, but rules are rules because they should not depend on such assumptions.

In my opinion that is a reason to change the rules, but not to stretch them, but I see that this may be kind of hard to accept.
russ_watters said:
If the US had an infestation of terrorists who controlled a segment of our territory and were continuously attacking China, with our government helpless to stop it, I'd be more upset about those issues than with China going after them.

Fair enough.
 
  • #43
Cthugha said:
Yes, I understand that position. However, I fail to see how that justifies the measures taken from a legal point of view. The formal way is of course to have consent of the UN before acting. I also do not see any justification in applying article 51 of the UN Charter (the one about self defence before the UN comes to some decision) here. This article does not justify preemptive war or this kind of drone war.
I certainly think there is an argument to be made either way there and in cases where the case on either side is murky...well... I take the selfish view. Ultimately, I think there is little disagreement on the US's invasion of Afghanistan, it is only the following of the Taliban/al Qaeda to Pakistan (also into some African countries) that people question.

In any case though, in your last sentence:
1. This war was not preemptive.
2. The UN charter doesn't say anything about drones as far as I know so I'm not sure what connection you are trying to draw.

The drones really are irrelevant to the issue of Pakistan's sovereignty. I guess maybe it's the instant thoughts of 1984 that people get when they hear about drones that gets them all uppity about the issue*. But the sovereignty issue is completely separate. The attack on Bin Laden's compound was a much worse incursion than any individual drone attack, for example.
But to be honest I also do not see an easy solution. However, I think the current US way of stretching self defense as justifying preemptive strikes is dangerous.
You keep mentioning preemptive strikes. To what are you referring? The only preemptive action I'm aware of here is the Iraq war and it isn't part of this discussion. Every aspect of the War on Terror, be it our attacks on Afghanistan, in Pakistan and northern Africa are responses (to several al Qaeda attacks), not preemptions.

*Because so much of this issue is false/improper conflagurations of separate issues, I'm really at a loss sometimes to figure out peoples' issues with drones. I think some might also be that people are uncomfortable with the power - the apparent invincibility - of the US's drone actions. As if it is just so easy for us that people feel uncomfortable and figure it must be wrong.
 
  • #44
russ_watters said:
Ultimately, I think there is little disagreement on the US's invasion of Afghanistan, it is only the following of the Taliban/al Qaeda to Pakistan (also into some African countries) that people question.

In any case though, in your last sentence:
1. This war was not preemptive.

From the legal point of view, there is (maybe) little difference. The United Nations Security Council did not authorize the US campaign. So the US considered the invasion as an act of collective self defense as allowed by chapter 51 of the UN when an attack has occurred. This is the only way such an invasion can be allowed in terms of international law unless of course the UN authorizes it (or the state in question agrees). You are right that preemptive is not really a matching word. What I meant to express is the action of performing an attack in collective self defense before the UN has come to a conclusion or given authorization. Now the catch is that the international court of justice has stated the opinion (back in 2004 concerning Israel building a wall in Palestine territory) that this right of collective self defense only applies in responses to attacks from states. This is in some contrast to UN resolutions 1368 and 1373 (the ones directly from 2001) which might be read in a manner allowing collective self defense in response to attacks not coming from states.

This gives the asymmetry problem I mentioned. The attacks came from organized groups, but not states. However, collective self defense requires to take measures against states. Up to now the UN have not come up with a solution for this problem and strictly speaking there is no right for self defense against terrorist attacks - just authorized campaigns are allowed. This is obviously not satisfying, not acceptable and needs to be resolved.

russ_watters said:
2. The UN charter doesn't say anything about drones as far as I know so I'm not sure what connection you are trying to draw.

No, it does not. My only point was that pretty much any countermeasure is not allowed unless authorized. This was not specific to drones.

russ_watters said:
The drones really are irrelevant to the issue of Pakistan's sovereignty. I guess maybe it's the instant thoughts of 1984 that people get when they hear about drones that gets them all uppity about the issue*. But the sovereignty issue is completely separate. The attack on Bin Laden's compound was a much worse incursion than any individual drone attack, for example.

Yes, of course. I agree with that. I just mentioned drones as they come up frequently in this thread. I also do not see anything special about drones. The way sovereignty is undermined does not really make a difference.


russ_watters said:
You keep mentioning preemptive strikes. To what are you referring? The only preemptive action I'm aware of here is the Iraq war and it isn't part of this discussion. Every aspect of the War on Terror, be it our attacks on Afghanistan, in Pakistan and northern Africa are responses (to several al Qaeda attacks), not preemptions.

As said above, preemptive was maybe not the right word. Unauthorized might be a better match. They are responses on a questionable legal basis. In my opinion it is necessary to find an acceptable way to deal with the issue of self defense in response to terrorist attacks and put it on a solid legal base quickly. Otherwise, it will be problematic to draw the line in the future. If the US can invade without UN authorization, what do we do if Israel wants to invade one of its neighbors claiming that terrorism originates from there? What about India and Pakistan? Ireland and North Ireland (ok, that is an absurd scenario, but it illustrates the point)? What are the rules? What kind of proof is required? Besides that having an accepted legal basis for these cases will significantly reduce the odds of breeding more terrorists in the countries which are subject to the countermeasures. It is easy for terrorist recruiters to blame the US as evil invaders. It is harder to blame the whole world/UN.

Anyway, you are right that this is probably not too drone specific anymore and I do not want to get off topic.

russ_watters said:
*Because so much of this issue is false/improper conflagurations of separate issues, I'm really at a loss sometimes to figure out peoples' issues with drones. I think some might also be that people are uncomfortable with the power - the apparent invincibility - of the US's drone actions. As if it is just so easy for us that people feel uncomfortable and figure it must be wrong.

Maybe there is a lower inhibition threshold for using drones as there are no lives at risk on the attacking side, but I am not sure whether that is a really important factor.

Besides I can see some points of how drones might seem creepy. A whole army consisting of men still has some group dynamics, conscience and (hopefully) some sense of right or wrong and ethics. So in order to commit a war crime - like killing lots of innocent civilians - one needs to convince a large group of people that wrong is right, maybe brainwashing them over the course of time. With drones you need just few ruthless people and need almost no time. I know that this is far fetched, but this is how fear works: worst case scenarios. However, in my opinion, one could already achieve the same using more conventional types of weapons like bombs. It might appear less horrible for the world when drones are used, though.
 
  • #45
This report is the result of nine months of research by the International Human Rights
and Conflict Resolution Clinic of Stanford Law School (Stanford Clinic) and the Global
Justice Clinic at New York University School of Law (NYU Clinic):

“In the United States, the dominant narrative about the use of drones in Pakistan is of a surgically precise and effective tool that makes the U. S. safer by enabling “targeted killing” of terrorists, with minimal downsides or collateral impacts.” This narrative is false.

First, while civilian casualties are rarely acknowledged by the US government, there is significant evidence that US drone strikes have injured and killed civilians.
Second, US drone strike policies cause considerable and under-accounted-for harm to the daily lives of ordinary civilians, beyond death and physical injury.
Third, publicly available evidence that the strikes have made the US safer overall is ambiguous at best.
Fourth, current US targeted killings and drone strike practices undermine respect for the rule of law and international legal protections and may set dangerous precedents.”
http://www.livingunderdrones.org/

The two bombs at the Boston Marathon killed three and injured nearly 200 people. The bombs were deliberately fabricated to spread shrapnel in order to cause maximum injuries. The deaths and maiming of innocents shocked our entire nation and prompted a massive law enforcement effort to find and arrest those responsible. Those exploding bombs that killed and maimed is called an act of terror.

When US Drone unleash their missiles on targeted “plotters” and inadvertently kill and injure nearby innocent adults and children it is called “collateral damage”. It is mainly ignored by the U. S. media and, in turn, by the public. The surviving families of the dead and injured in those faraway countries call the U. S. drone attacks an act of terror.

U. S. CIA Drone attacks target gatherings such as weddings and funerals in order to “take out” a person suspected of planning something. Eye witness reports have shown evidence that at least 50 civilians have been killed in rapid follow-up strikes when rescuers had gone to help victims. When an explosion in the midst of a wedding party or among the mourners at a funeral kills and injures innocents, are those victims somehow less valuable than our victims in Boston? Are these targeted killings acts of terror?

“Our government has decided that instead of detaining members of al-Qaida (at Guantánamo) they are going to kill them using unmanned armed drones. An estimated 4,000 people have been killed by U. S, drones in approximately 420 “targeted killings” operations in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Niger, Ethiopia, Uzbekistan, and Somalia since the first drone strike was conducted under the Bush Administration. These estimated numbers of deaths include 176 children.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ch...-humanity-committed-by-barack-h-obama/5320570

“The White House, together with the Pentagon and the CIA, reportedly maintains a "kill list" with potential drone targets. President Barack Obama reportedly approves every name that is added to the list after looking over biographies of the suspected terrorists that one official referred to as "baseball cards." According to the Justice Department white paper, the U.S. does not need evidence of a specific attack to consider an alleged terrorist an "imminent" threat worthy of a targeted strike.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/aclu-drones_n_2926785.html

“The MQ-9 Reaper drone can carry up to 14 AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-ground missiles. The MQ-1 Predator can carry 2 Hellfires. Each missile carries a warhead: the AGM-114M Hellfire II warhead is the Blast fragmentation/incendiary type, and the AGM-114N Hellfire II carries the Metal augmented charge (MAC) (Thermobaric) warhead. This thermobaric weapon, which includes the type known as a "fuel-air bomb", is an explosive weapon that produces a blast wave of a significantly longer duration than those produced by condensed explosives. This is useful in military applications where its longer duration increases the numbers of casualties and causes more damage to structures.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-1_Predator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_augmented_charge

“The CIA and the military are carrying out an illegal “targeted killing” program in which people far from any battlefield are determined to be enemies of the state and killed without charge or trial. The executive branch has, in effect, claimed the unchecked authority to put the names of citizens and others on “kill lists” on the basis of a secret determination, based on secret evidence, that a person meets a secret definition of the enemy. The targeted killing program operates with virtually no oversight outside the executive branch, and essential details about the program remain secret, including what criteria are used to put people on CIA and military kill lists or how much evidence is required.” http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/drones

The U. S. government is relying on two arguments to justify its drone policy under international law:
1. That the US remained in a state of war with al-Qaida and its affiliates, or
2. That those individuals targeted in countries such as Pakistan were planning imminent attacks against US interests. This procedure allows the U. S. to assign the roles of Judge, Jury, Prosecutor, and Executioner to a select group, with no opportunity for the exercise of any of the rights of the accused suspected plotter.

“The legal justification for drone strikes has become so stretched that critics fear it could now encourage other countries to claim they were acting within international law if they deployed similar technology. Hina Shamsi, a director at the American Civil Liberties Union, warned that the issue of legal reciprocity was not just a hypothetical concern: "The use of this technology is spreading and we have to think about what we would say if other countries used drones for targeted killing programmes. The drone strikes are counterproductive because they gave rise to a desire, particularly among young men, to seek revenge for the drone strikes, thus radicalizing a new generation that hate the United States. Retired Navy Commander Leah Bolger, past president of Veterans for Peace, explains, “The combat drone program is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, none of whom received any sort of due process; were citizens of a country with which we are not at war; and were murdered, not as a result of military action, but by a civilian agency – the CIA.”
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/pre...ywhere-washington-march-against-us-drone-warf

The height of hypocrisy is reached every day that US media do not even mention that our own government is murdering innocents in countries around the world and yet, when an American child is murdered our media and our nation can focus on nothing else. Is an American innocent person in Boston any more valuable than an innocent person in Pakistan?
 
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  • #46
  • #47
Bob, that is a disgusting collection of morally depraved propaganda nonsense. It makes my skin crawl to read it. It is unworthy of a full point by point analysis, so just a quick couple of high(low)lights.

1. Yes, drones kill civilians. Duh. Stating that fact without analysis of the historical context is at best pointless. But here's the context and it is utterly obvious: drones make war safer for civilians than similar alternatives. That is an obvious result of the fact that they use small, accurate missiles and are relatively stealthy.

2. Equating collateral damage in war to the Boston Bombings? Disgusting, morally twisted and unworthy of a direct response. You may as well be calling fatal car accident perpetrators terrorists for all the usefulness of the comparison.

3. Murder? You keep using that word. I don't think you have any idea what it means.
 
  • #48
1. Yes, attacking people in Pakistan is a violation of their national sovereignty.

2. Yes, the people we do attack in Pakistan are legitimate military targets, as they're conducting a war in Afghanistan and then fleeing back over the border into "safe" territory.

3. Yes, Pakistan is one of our allies - or at least they receive military aid from us, even if we're not exactly close allies.

I guess the legal way to handle this would be to consider Pakistan providing safe haven to organizations conducting attacks in Afghanistan and to declare war on Pakistan. That wouldn't help either the US or Pakistan. Finding some pretense that both governments can find acceptable is a solution that works.

The pretense being that as long as US military troops don't actually set foot upon Pakistan territory, we're not really violating their sovereignty - an act that would require Pakistan to take an action they definitely don't want to take. They'd lose the military aid we provide them, plus they'd be fighting a nation that was militarily superior to them.

It's a solution that works in practice, even if it doesn't seem like it should work in theory.

The fact that we use drones (or any weapons) to attack legitimate military targets is what differentiates military attacks from terrorist attacks.

(Although I have to admit that if the facility that drones were operated from were attacked by a suicide car bomb, the public would still probably cry that it was a terrorist attack. Terminology seems to be rather sloppy when it comes to terrorism, and weapons of mass destruction, for that matter.)
 
  • #49
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