Collapse of Pauli exclusion principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the collapse of a neutron star into a black hole, particularly in relation to the Pauli exclusion principle and its role in quantum mechanics. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of neutron degeneracy pressure and the conflict between quantum theory and general relativity in extreme gravitational conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Laura questions what occurs when a neutron star collapses and no longer adheres to the Pauli exclusion principle, particularly in the context of quantum mechanics and increasing mass.
  • Some participants highlight that the collapse of neutron stars into black holes raises fundamental issues in physics, specifically the conflict between quantum theory and general relativity.
  • One participant notes that electron degeneracy pressure breaks down when gravity is strong enough to bind electrons to protons, forming neutrons and leading to the creation of a neutron star.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about how neutron degeneracy pressure fails during collapse.
  • There is a suggestion that gravity can push electrons and neutrons into higher energy states, allowing them to occupy different levels, thus overcoming degeneracy pressure.
  • Some participants propose the possibility of a transition to a supersymmetric state during collapse, referencing external sources that discuss such transitions in neutron stars or white dwarfs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the specifics of how the Pauli exclusion principle is affected during the collapse of neutron stars, and multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of degeneracy pressure and potential transitions in states.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in current understanding, particularly regarding the mathematical and theoretical frameworks that govern the behavior of matter under extreme gravitational conditions. There are unresolved questions about the exact nature of the collapse process and the role of degeneracy pressure.

lark
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What happens when a neutron star collapses into a black hole and it's no longer obeying the Pauli exclusion principle? In terms of quantum mechanics? Say it collapses because it gets more massive.
A "neutron degeneracy pressure" can be calculated, which is what keeps the neutron star from collapsing.
Since this pressure can be calculated, I suppose people have some idea of what happens when gravitation overwhelms it, in terms of quantum mechanics?
I'm puzzled because from what I remember, the Pauli exclusion principle comes from adding two quantum states of two particles together, and they're out of phase so they cancel where both positions are the same. It sounds pretty basic and I wonder what happens when this stops working.
Laura
 
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The questions you are raising point to a fundamental problem of current physics. Specifically when trying to describe what happens inside a black hole, quantum theory and general relativity are in conflict. How to resolve this is an open question.
 
Electron degeneracy breaks down when there is so much gravity that they become bound to the protons and create neutrons. This is the creation of a neutron star.

How the Neutron's degeneracy pressure breaks down is unknown to me.
 
mathman said:
The questions you are raising point to a fundamental problem of current physics. Specifically when trying to describe what happens inside a black hole, quantum theory and general relativity are in conflict. How to resolve this is an open question.

If somebody can calculate the pressure resisting the collapse of the Pauli exclusion principle, it seems like they should have some idea of what it's collapsing to. Knowing the pressure seems to indicate knowledge of the process involved.
 
It doesn't have to be a problem because the gravity is able to overcome the degenarcy pressure, i.e. it is able to push the electrons/neutrons to high enough energy states so that they don't occupy the same levels.

It could also be that at some stage the system makes a transition to an exact supersymmetric state. It has been argued that such transitions could actually happen spontaneously in neutron stars or white dwarfs:

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0403227

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0602024

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0703221
 

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