Commutator group in the center of a group

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the commutator group [G,G] and its relationship with a normal subgroup H of a group G. The original poster attempts to show that if H intersects the commutator group trivially, then H must be contained in the center Z(G) of the group G.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the meaning of the intersection H ∩ [G,G] and its implications for the structure of H. There is discussion about the normality of H in G and how it relates to elements of the group. Some participants question the direction of their reasoning and the assumptions being made about the elements involved.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the problem, questioning their assumptions and exploring different lines of reasoning. Some have pointed out potential misdirections in their attempts, while others are trying to clarify the relationships between the elements of H and G. There is a recognition that the discussion is productive, with various interpretations being explored.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty regarding the definitions and implications of the intersection H ∩ [G,G], and participants are navigating the constraints of the problem without arriving at a definitive conclusion.

AllRelative
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Homework Statement


[G,G] is the commutator group.
Let ##H\triangleleft G## such that ##H\cap [G,G]## = {e}. Show that ##H \subseteq Z(G)##.

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


In the previous problem I showed that ##G## is abelian iif ##[G,G] = {e}##. I also showed that ##[G,G]\triangleleft G##.

***
I am unsure what ##(H\cap [G,G])## represents.
Is ##(H\cap [G,G])## = ##[H,H]##,
or is it equal to {##[x,y] \in H | x,y \in G##}??
***
I began my solution like this:
##\forall [a,b] \in (H\cap [G,G])##, we have that ##a^{-1}b^{-1}ab = e##
##\Rightarrow ab = ba##

something missing

##\Rightarrow H\subseteq Z(G)##.
 
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AllRelative said:
I began my solution like this:
##\forall [a,b] \in (H\cap [G,G])##, we have that ##a^{-1}b^{-1}ab = e \Rightarrow ab = ba##
That's the wrong direction. You started with an element which is the identity and want to show what? That ##e\in Z(G)##?

Skip the direction. What can you say about ##g^{-1}hgh\,##?
 
You're right, I started the wrong way haha.

So ##g^{-1}hg \in G## because of the normality of ##H## in ##G##.

##g^{-1}h^{-1}gh## = ##g'h## with ##g'=g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
 
AllRelative said:
You're right, I started the wrong way haha.

So ##g^{-1}hg \in G## because of the normality of ##H## in ##G##.

##g^{-1}h^{-1}gh## = ##g'h## with ##g'=g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
So ##g^{-1}hg \in H## because of the normality of ##H## in ##G##.

##g^{-1}h^{-1}gh## = ##h'h## with ##h'=g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
 
fresh_42 said:
So ##g^{-1}hg \in H## because of the normality of ##H## in ##G##.

##g^{-1}h^{-1}gh## = ##h'h## with ##h'=g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
Sorry I still don't see it...

We have an ##h' = g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
We can write ##(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)h = [g,h] = h'h## which belongs to ##H##.

I assume we have to show somehow that ##h'h = hh'## which would make ##H## abelian and therefore a subset of ##Z(G)##.

But ##h'h = hh'##
##(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)h = h(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)##

I don't think we can much with that last expression...
 
AllRelative said:
Sorry I still don't see it...

We have an ##h' = g^{-1}h^{-1}g##.
We can write ##(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)h = [g,h] = h'h## which belongs to ##H##.

I assume we have to show somehow that ##h'h = hh'## which would make ##H## abelian and therefore a subset of ##Z(G)##.

But ##h'h = hh'##
##(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)h = h(g^{-1}h^{-1}g)##

I don't think we can much with that last expression...
We already have ##[g,h] \in [G,H] \subseteq [G,G]## and ##[g,h]=h'h \in H##. This is ##[g,h]\in H \cap [G,G]=\{\,e\,\}\,.##
So ##[g,h]=g^{-1}h^{-1}gh=e##.

Everything needed is already here.
 
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