Can Conformal Transformations be Derived from Group Composition Rules?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the derivation of conformal transformations and their algebra, particularly in relation to group composition rules, such as those from the Lorentz group. Participants explore the connections between the conformal group and the Lorentz group, as well as the implications for field theories in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the algebra of the conformal group \mbox{Con}(1,n-1) is isomorphic to that of the Lorentz group \mbox{SO}(2,n), suggesting a method to derive commutation relations from group composition rules.
  • Others express difficulty in understanding the isomorphism and its implications, indicating a need for further exploration of the connections to DeSitter/Anti-DeSitter spaces.
  • A participant introduces a perspective on conformal transformations as preserving the lightcone, proposing a connection to AdS space and suggesting that this context may illuminate the relationship between conformal transformations and Lie algebras.
  • Another viewpoint is presented, discussing the representation of a four-dimensional surface in five-dimensional projective space and its relation to conformal transformations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the isomorphism between the algebras of the conformal and Lorentz groups, but there remains uncertainty and differing levels of understanding regarding the implications and derivations of this relationship. Multiple competing views on how to approach the topic are present.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in their understanding and the complexity of the algebra involved, as well as the dependence on specific mathematical frameworks and assumptions related to the transformations and spaces discussed.

formodular
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Hi!

Is there a way to end up with the algebra

5c1cebad87b5e53e8458678669adeec3e825296d


i) quickly

ii) starting from a group, as how one gets the CR's from the Lorentz group composition rules, as on http://www.krassnigg.org/web/physics/wp-content/uploads/hoqft12-skriptum.pdf.

The other relations are quite complicated and the composition rules well are not clear.

:smile:
 
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formodular said:
Hi!

Is there a way to end up with the algebra

5c1cebad87b5e53e8458678669adeec3e825296d


i) quickly

ii) starting from a group, as how one gets the CR's from the Lorentz group composition rules, as on http://www.krassnigg.org/web/physics/wp-content/uploads/hoqft12-skriptum.pdf.

The other relations are quite complicated and the composition rules well are not clear.

:smile:

The algebra of the conformal group \mbox{Con}(1,n-1) is isomorphic to that of the Lorentz group \mbox{SO}(2,n). The latter can be obtained from the infinitesimal form of the group multiplication law U(\Lambda) U(\bar{\Lambda}) = U(\Lambda \bar{\Lambda}), by setting U(\Lambda) = 1 + \frac{i}{2} \omega_{AB}M^{AB}, where \omega_{AB} + \omega_{BA} = 0, and A , B = -2, -1, 0, 1, \cdots , n-1. Doing the easy exercise gives you [i M^{AB } , M^{CD}] = \eta^{BC}M^{AD} - \eta^{AC}M^{BD} + \eta^{AD}M^{BC} - \eta^{BD} M^{AC} , where \eta^{AB} = (1 , -1, \eta^{\mu\nu}) with \eta^{\mu\nu} being the Lorentz metric on the n-dimensional Minkowski space-time \mu, \nu = 0, 1, \cdots n-1. Now, the algebra of \mbox{Con}(1,n-1) is obtained from the above by defining the following generators D = M^{-2 , -1} , \ \ \ J^{\mu\nu} = M^{\mu\nu} , \frac{1}{2} (P^{\mu} - K^{\mu}) = M^{-2 , \mu} , \frac{1}{2}(P^{\mu} + K^{\mu}) = M^{-1, \mu} .

You may want to look at

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=172461
 
samalkhaiat said:
The algebra of the conformal group \mbox{Con}(1,n-1) is isomorphic to that of the Lorentz group \mbox{SO}(2,n).

Yes!

This is ultimately the answer, and seeing it would give the commutation relations very quickly if you knew you could end up doing this. I must say understanding this is what I am having difficulty with and have spent a week trying to see this, and the link to DeSitter/Anti-DeSitter spaces, in a way that predicts everything in advance, and need to think some more before formulating a question on how to see this in advance, e.g. in an old Dirac paper he just goes to DeSitter space in seconds with no work.
 
formodular said:
Yes!
This is ultimately the answer

The Lie algebra isomorphism \mathfrak{so}(n,2) \cong \mathfrak{con}(n-1,1), which I sketched in #2, is the mathematical base for the correspondence between field theory in the bulk of the space \mbox{Ads}_{n+1} and a conformal field theory on its boundary \mbox{CFT}_{n}. This is because of the fact that the group SO(n,2) is the isometry group of \mbox{Ads}_{n+1}, and \mbox{Con}(n-1,1) is (obviously) the symmetry group of \mbox{CFT}_{n}.
 
Well...

I do not understand that yet, so from a more rudimentary place - if you view conformal transformations as transformations preserving the lightcone,
$$ds^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2 = 0 \ \ \to \ \ ds'^2 = f(x)ds^2 = 0$$
then we can go from here to what we will call AdS space by treating this as embedded in
$$x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2 = 0 \ \ \to \ \ x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2 - w^2 = - R^2 $$

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1968649

where when ##x,y,z,t## are small in comparison with ##R## we have ##w## equal to ##R## to first order so that, as ##R \to \infty## we obtain our lightcone, and so it seems reasonable why conformal transformations arise in this AdS context,
$$x'^2 + y'^2 + z'^2 - t'^2 - w^2 = - R^2 \ \ \to \ \ f(x)(x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2) - w^2 = - R^2$$
and why the Lie algebras might be linked.

Then there is another viewpoint

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1968455

where you view your ##4## dimensional surface as a surface in ##5## dimensional projective space which, in homogeneous coordinates, gives ##6## coordinates ##x^{\mu}## and you can go from ##x_{\mu} x^{\mu} = 0## to conformal transformations as in that paper.

So yes this is some rudimentary pieces of this puzzle so far, not enough yet.
 

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