Connecting car alternators in parallel

[OmCheeto]

Do any of you thinks that I could do this (2 alternator outputs to perform as a single generator) in a much easy and cheap way?

$2740 isn't cheap when you can buy a 7kw gas powered 120/240 vac electric generator for $400.

And if it were easy what you were trying to do, GM and Chrysler wouldn't be bankrupt right now.

Sorry Omcheeto,
Should have used a capitol A, Advanced DC, are the motors used in most electric car conversions. They come in power ratings as high as 20 HP.

I knew that.

I'm familiar with the Advanced, Warp, and E-tec engines. Comes from hanging around the ev club geeks. I've even met John Wayland! (pat on back, pat on back)

 

[RonL]

$2740 isn't cheap when you can buy a 7kw gas powered 120/240 vac electric generator for $400.

And if it were easy what you were trying to do, GM and Chrysler wouldn't be bankrupt right now.



I knew that.

I'm familiar with the Advanced, Warp, and E-tec engines. Comes from hanging around the ev club geeks. I've even met John Wayland! (pat on back, pat on back)

Took me a long time to see the light doing the power part is easy, making it fool proof and idiot proof is where all the problems and expensive things come to the table.

 

[RonL]

Do any of you thinks that I could do this (2 alternator outputs to perform as a single generator) in a much easy and cheap way?

When it comes to electric motors and generators, you can get really creative, there are plenty of different components to connect or separate them in whatever way you need. Last time I priced alternators, a standard 95 amp unit cost between $75-100 USD. There is no way to short-cut the power to turn them, IMO the most important goal is the ability to recover energy that has been spent.

I have worked on battery connections and what you show in your drawing is most likely the best way. I have 12 batteries, and do not have the knowledge of electronics to build what I would like to have, that is a way to have them cycle one at a time.
What I see is, one is isolated and brought to full charge, while the other eleven (in various states of discharge) power the system. As the fully charged unit comes back on line the last and hopefully least charged one is isolated and charged. This continuous loop of charging would insure that each of the 12 batteries received the same depth of discharge and the same number of charges. I just can't see how to do this electronically without touching the batteries except to check for water.

The other thing I'm working on is the use of 2-1/2 HP treadmill DC motors. Putting 12 motors (30 HP total) 6 each on a jack shaft, the two jackshafts transfer 15 HP each to the drive system, the total weight of the motors, just under 100 pounds. Cost @ $20 each (surplus New) $360 USD. (for the skeptics, how often do treadmill motors have to be replaced?)

This compared to the Advanced 20HP motor, $1,700 USD at 140 pounds

The long skinny jackshaft, motor combination makes for a major space saving idea.

There are some other heavy ideas for the use of the treadmill motors in an EV, but for now, this should draw plenty of fire from the forum.

Later

RonL

 

[agabrielauto]

12 motors?. Do they all get conected to same controller?

 

[RonL]

12 motors?. Do they all get conected to same controller?

That's where I bogged down, I bought components to build individual controllers, but then my brain kinda goes a little bit in different directions and I can't decide on final plans. You can have all 12 run in one direction in unison, then you can set groups of 2 or 3 to run in reverse direction through clutch bearings, turning gear reductions of whaterever might be needed for low speed applications. A little like a 3 or 4 speed transmission. All this by simply reversing and splitting current flow.

I have a tendency to think myself out of project completions.

Crazy stuff, but there are times when the ability to split and separate individual motors into different actions will prove worthwhile in minimizing current flow.

RonL

 

[agabrielauto]

Is there a possibility to use less motors.? Let's say 4 or six. Each one would need more power, but maybe its more easy to build. and if each one has its own battery and alternator, it may run a lot of miles witout recharge.

 

[RonL]

Is there a possibility to use less motors.? Let's say 4 or six. Each one would need more power, but maybe its more easy to build. and if each one has its own battery and alternator, it may run a lot of miles witout recharge.

If you go back in the history of electric car manufacturing (started in the late 1800's) you will find that most cars were fitted with 2-5 HP motors.

A single motor is the more simple way, my method is a plan in action, that cost far less, but imposes a lot of mechanical maddness and dispite the illogical overall picture, it has some very positive points.

If I'm seeing your thoughts correctly, you are trying to move energy from a battery, then get it back in the battery with little loss between the two actions. I have been down that road of thought for a long time. In my opinion you are not grasping the amount of energy loss that occurs in each direction.

Use and recharge will not happen (in an affective manor) while your in motion, unless you tap into solar, or recapturing energy from the air you have pushed aside.

Ron

 

[agabrielauto]

What idea do you think is the best for recapturing energy from the air you have pushed aside.

 

[RonL]

What idea do you think is the best for recapturing energy from the air you have pushed aside.

A very brief description, the rest will be followup thinking and study on your part.

A pickup truck offers the best application to put all this to work. Energy gets the vehicle to speed, at speed air flows into a scoop, the width of the cab and 2 or3 inches high, it tapers back to the width of a turbine housing, where the air is being drawn into a low pressure area, feeding a Tesla style turbine around 36" diameter. The energy needed to pull a vacuum of cooler air will be less than the energy rammed into the intake. The discharge of air pulled through the vacuum impeller(s) (one on each side) will be discharged into the draft area of the vehicle, thus reducing the loss of energy due to drag in the draft area.

Keep in mind the thermal differences, you can find a lot of energy in large mass, low velocity air movement.

 

[OmCheeto]

A very brief description, the rest will be followup thinking and study on your part.

A pickup truck offers the best application to put all this to work. Energy gets the vehicle to speed, at speed air flows into a scoop, the width of the cab and 2 or3 inches high, it tapers back to the width of a turbine housing, where the air is being drawn into a low pressure area, feeding a Tesla style turbine around 36" diameter. The energy needed to pull a vacuum of cooler air will be less than the energy rammed into the intake. The discharge of air pulled through the vacuum impeller(s) (one on each side) will be discharged into the draft area of the vehicle, thus reducing the loss of energy due to drag in the draft area.

Keep in mind the thermal differences, you can find a lot of energy in large mass, low velocity air movement.

How convenient that I purchased a pickup truck two weeks ago. Now I know what to do with those 5,000,000 AOL cd's sitting in my closet.

I did some experimenting this weekend with my spare 60 amp alternator but couldn't find anything to run it up to 10,000 rpm. The best I could do was ~1000 rpm which supplied about 5 amps while the alternator and battery were hooked up to my electric outboard as a load. It was drawing about 20 amps. I suppose I could hook the outboard to the battery in my car and set a brick on the gas pedal and take measurements.

I also disassembled an old non-functioning(brushes worn to nubs) alternator(~1970 Delco-Remy 63 amp) that I absconded with from my brothers driveway, and think that it would not be too big of a project to isolate the casing from the negative terminal of the alternator. You can also externalize all voltage control circuitry, making it much simpler to adjust and replace circuits.

Gads experimenting is fun.

 

[RonL]

How convenient that I purchased a pickup truck two weeks ago. Now I know what to do with those 5,000,000 AOL cd's sitting in my closet.

I did some experimenting this weekend with my spare 60 amp alternator but couldn't find anything to run it up to 10,000 rpm. The best I could do was ~1000 rpm which supplied about 5 amps while the alternator and battery were hooked up to my electric outboard as a load. It was drawing about 20 amps. I suppose I could hook the outboard to the battery in my car and set a brick on the gas pedal and take measurements.

I also disassembled an old non-functioning(brushes worn to nubs) alternator(~1970 Delco-Remy 63 amp) that I absconded with from my brothers driveway, and think that it would not be too big of a project to isolate the casing from the negative terminal of the alternator. You can also externalize all voltage control circuitry, making it much simpler to adjust and replace circuits.

Gads experimenting is fun.

If you want to use your CD's you had better set up camp at the salt flats, and yes experimenting is fun

As for the rest of your post, message recieved.

 

[agabrielauto]

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/6/234458/2571
read, they talk about ac current from inside alternator befora rectifying it. and other stuff, as u said, just for fun.
Can I connect 2 ac output (parallel, series or whatever) to get more power. I just want to learn.
If companies like ZENA incorporated are doing it, there has to be a way to do it cheaper.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/6/234458/2571
read, they talk about ac current from inside alternator befora rectifying it. and other stuff, as u said, just for fun.
Can I connect 2 ac output (parallel, series or whatever) to get more power. I just want to learn.
If companies like ZENA incorporated are doing it, there has to be a way to do it cheaper.

I couldn't find where http://www.zena.net/htdocs/alternators/mar_alt.shtml" hooked two 3 phase ac generators in parallel or series. Do you have a link?

Doing something like this is somewhat more difficult than running two matched DC alternators in parallel or series. I actually can't imagine two ac generators in series. And putting them in parallel would require voltage and frequency matching, and phase synchronization. Although done every day by utility companies with multi-megawatt generators, trying to synchronize two alternator sized ac generators strikes me as a monstrous waste of time and effort.

The only effective way of doing it on such a small scale would be to physically mate the two generator rotors together on a common shaft, with the ability to rotate one of the generator bodies to fine tune the phase difference. And since you've lost the rectifiers, you'd better have really good voltage regulators or you'll be awash in reactive currents.

http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1011v3/css/h1011v3_110.htm"

Their terminal voltages must be equal. If the voltages of the two AC generators are not equal, one of the AC generators could be picked up as a reactive load to the other AC generator. This causes high currents to be exchanged between the two machines, possibly causing generator or distribution system damage.

Gads this makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

 

[agabrielauto]

In this answer to an email I send them(Zena), they explain the sistem.

deAnthony Blazina <blazina@zena.net>
paraAgabriel Auto <agabrielauto@gmail.com>

fecha4 de junio de 2009 12:13
asuntoRe: 600 amp* @ 13-22 VDC multiple alternator generating system

ocultar detalles 04-jun (hace 7 días) Responder



This system would comprise three of our SR200.12 Power Generators ($675 ea.), one WC.12B Master Control Module ($195), two WC.12S Slave Control Modules ($165 ea.), and one WC.VR2 Voltage Regulator Module ($190).
The three generators would be mounted so as to be driven by a single engine (though multiple engines can be used) -- typically be means of a single serpentine belt pulley mounted to the engine's drive shaft. The individual output terminals of the three generators would be connected together and with our electronic controls perform as a single generator (though more efficiently since we produce much less waste heat during the generation process.
The total cost of the system would be $2740.
Optional mounting and bracketing components are also available -- as is a suitable serpentine pulley for mounting to your engine's drive shaft.
Please call me if I can be of any further help, or if you want to discuss your specific application in more detail.

Tony Blazina
ZENA, Incorporated
330 Club Springs Road
Elmwood, TN 38560
Phone: 615-897-2011 OR 877-ZENA INC (toll free in USA)
FAX 615-897-2023
On the web at www.zena.net[/url] ([url]http://www.zena.net[/URL])

 

[agabrielauto]

Take a look also to this stackable power inverter on ebay. They say you can stack 2 or more alternators even with diferent voltage output.
On ebay search "stackable power inverter 2500/5000 w 12v dc to 120v ac
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220428256895&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=330335262192&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%252BP%252BS%252BIA%26itu%3DFICS%252BUFI%252BUA%252BIA%252BUCI%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D10

 

[OmCheeto]

Take a look also to this stackable power inverter on ebay. They say you can stack 2 or more alternators even with diferent voltage output.
On ebay search "stackable power inverter 2500/5000 w 12v dc to 120v ac
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220428256895&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=330335262192&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%252BP%252BS%252BIA%26itu%3DFICS%252BUFI%252BUA%252BIA%252BUCI%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D10

Odd that the model number of the inverter and "ATSIU Series inverters" are unique to this sale. The item appears to be identical to the http://www.ssecn.com/english/production_detail.php?id=65" sold by the Ningbo National Hi-Tech Zone Sunshine Technology Company.

They appear to be intended to be sold in sets of three. I wonder what happened to the other two inverters in the above sale?

Each Bid is For 1 Inverter Only!

caveat emptor

 

[agabrielauto]

Is there any good website where I can read and learn more about connecting ac or dc lines in parallel or in series?

 

[OmCheeto]

Is there any good website where I can read and learn more about connecting ac or dc lines in parallel or in series?

I learned everything I knew about the topic from real life. This web thing is new to me. You might just want to stick around and ask any relevant questions.

And you might want to start a new thread if it doesn't involve alternators. Otherwise, we'll be off topic.

 

[leighton_mcle]

Would connecting the shafts of three alternators together illuminate the issue of frequency and voltage matching thus allowing their outputs to be parallel without any difficulties?

 

[miloman]

Hello ALL ! NICE SITE! 6 years / 5 computors and a long long list of Bo BOO's and here I am.
GLAD YOU get too READ ME !
Well, I hope there is more updates to this question with STRONG anserws,,cause I built all the bracketing, built the dual pully, rebuilt the 2nd alternator and have already installed the unit in my 94 Ford Ranger,, Having some intutitive sense,, have yet to completely hook it up yet.
My e-mail for quicker response with this "miloman@netscape.com" would of course be GREATLY appreciated with advisal's and sure fire methodes.
I did some mod's to the motorcraft prior to installing. (1) leaving the B/R and reg in, I tapped into the stat windings prior to bridge and brought the the three 12ga. out an onto an old electric dryer pigtail connector off the back of an, "OLD DRYER". I mouted this to the underhood wheel well, "ie engine compartment, for later rectification with beefer diodes.
(2) I also tapped into the brush's to the "field winding" ,bypassing the regulator" and brought these out as well for working with ,,,,"LATER".
(3) I also isolated the alternator body from adjustable bracketing useing various poly pipe as inserts,,though I have little faith in there longetivity due to under hood heat and vibration. Will have to find another form of isolation later. Useing my Ohm meter, I got a reading of abou.245meg,,don't know if it is material or all the sweat I left in the process.
I am No engineer,, Not even a pimple on a electronics tech's backside, so I did runn it, but thru the field by pass only and connected to the Volt meter ONLY,,"it worked" but I think I over saturated? the Field winding via just bypass direct connect to battery? cause it soon went from about 27 volts to millivolts. THATS why I am here TODAY.. DID I run to much current to the field? I disconnected it, let things cool down and tried again,,,it worked again and then it didn't.
ANOTHER question for those who know, if phasing as was posted could damage things blow batterys ect. Why in my 42 yrs of driving junk with friends who also drive junk, both of which from time to time needed a jump did this not blow things up after starting with cables and forgetting in the HOT west Texas or Arz sun that they were still hooked up and retreating to the shade to down a six pack of budwieser beer only relize we just wasted a lot of gas? Nothing happened there and they were not isolated from each other being connected by both +and- jumper cable? This is not to put in the trash all those post's, but to save me from putting a good pickup there as well. So PLEASE,,someone tell me.
Thanks Ed

 

[miloman]

I guess I hit another dead forum,, anyone have any ideas or input on the " dualALTERNATOR" post? I put my e-mail address in there for FASSSSSSTER response, that was yesterday,,wed. Come sunday I will strap my question to my horse and send it to somewhere there is a live body with the knowledge.

 

[davenn]

I guess I hit another dead forum,, anyone have any ideas or input on the " dualALTERNATOR" post? I put my e-mail address in there for FASSSSSSTER response, that was yesterday,,wed. Come sunday I will strap my question to my horse and send it to somewhere there is a live body with the knowledge.

thats what happens when you try and revive a 3 year old thread, not really the thing to do

if you have specific queries start a new thread :)

Dave

 

[miloman]

well thanks for the heads up Dave,, google directed my search to this and many other sites under "dual auto alternator schematics and circuit's.
Three yrs young/old? Hell I am 55 and my kidds still try when they want, to read me.
I see you are a geologist, we got um by the Baggs full here in the permian basin. What I would be looking for is, Placer gold though,,,not oil.
I am not going to start a new thread,,,you already have one. I think I can figure it out on my own witt with what I have. I was just hoping someone else had already done the tried and TRUE. Nothing ventured,,,,?