Consistency of arithmetic Mod N

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the consistency of arithmetic modulo N, exploring whether there is an upper limit for N where this consistency is known to be established. Participants engage with theoretical implications, interpretations of proofs, and the nature of mathematical translation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the existence of nontrivial results regarding the consistency of arithmetic modulo N, suggesting that consistency mod 2 is equivalent to the consistency of predicate calculus.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of proofs in mathematical formalisms versus their applicability to problems phrased in natural language, with some arguing that the problem remains unresolved due to differing interpretations of "consistency."
  • One participant expresses a belief that the problem is solved based on their interpretation, while acknowledging that a broader interpretation could lead to the conclusion that it is still unresolved.
  • A participant proposes that there may be no upper bound for N, suggesting a physical model of arithmetic modulo n that could imply consistency.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the consistency of arithmetic modulo N, with multiple competing views and interpretations of the problem and its proofs remaining evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the translation of natural language problems into mathematical terms, which may affect the understanding and resolution of the concept of consistency.

Count Iblis
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"[URL consistency of ordinary arithmetic has not yet been satifactorily settled[/URL]. What is the upper limit for N such that arithmetic modulo N is known to be consistent?
 
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I don't know of any nontrivial results. I suppose consistency mod 2 is equivalent to the consistency of predicate calculus, so it's fine there.
 
On the Wikipedia site you linked to it says "some feel that these results resolved the problem, while others feel that the problem is still open."

While any mathematician may guess as much as they want about a certain result being correct or not, at the end of the day that means nothing in mathematics. Either it is correct or not, and feelings will not make either result more probable, IMO :smile:

So I wonder why some "feel" that the problem is resolved, if a proof doesn't exist?

Torquil
 
torquil said:
So I wonder why some "feel" that the problem is resolved

There is a problem, phrased in natural language. There are proofs written in mathematical formalisms. Some feel that the problem described in natural language are solved by those proofs; some feel that the problem described in natural language is not addressed by the formal proofs.

The issue isn't the validity or existence of the proofs, but their applicability. It is fundamentally an issue of translation.
 
2 is rather depressingly low value for N.
 
CRGreathouse said:
There is a problem, phrased in natural language. There are proofs written in mathematical formalisms. Some feel that the problem described in natural language are solved by those proofs; some feel that the problem described in natural language is not addressed by the formal proofs.

The issue isn't the validity or existence of the proofs, but their applicability. It is fundamentally an issue of translation.

Is it then just that the "problem described in natural language" has not been accurately and uniquely translated into mathematical terms? If so, it would be a case of people interpreting the concept of "consistency" in different ways?

Torquil
 
torquil said:
Is it then just that the "problem described in natural language" has not been accurately and uniquely translated into mathematical terms? If so, it would be a case of people interpreting the concept of "consistency" in different ways?

Right. My interpretation of the natural language is such that I consider the problem solved. But it's easy to interpret the problem more broadly, and in that sense it's still unresolved.
 
I would think there is no upper-bound. If we think of the number 0, 1, ..., n-1 arranged in a clockwise manner on a circle, and interpret addition by 1 as one spot clockwise, then we have enough machinery to build a "physical" model of arithmetic modulo n, so it certainly has to be consistent.
 

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