Creation and Destruction of Entropy

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of entropy and whether it can be simultaneously created and destroyed in different parts of the universe or a process. While entropy can be locally decreased, this ultimately leads to an overall increase in entropy due to energy conversions. The conversation also mentions the work of Nobel Prize winner Ilya Prigogine and his theory of internal entropy production. One specific process is presented as an exception to the typical behavior of thermodynamic processes, where entropy is both created and destroyed in different parts of the system. However, this process still follows the laws of thermodynamics as the total entropy change of the universe is still greater than zero.
  • #1
Iraides Belandria
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¿ Can entropy be simultaneously created and destroyed in different partes of the universe of a process?
 
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  • #2
I thought entropy was a measure of disorder? We've done about it in Chemistry, and I was under the impression that it always increased? If this is the case, surely it can't be destroyed? Just thinking out loud here though, I really don't know!
 
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  • #3
Iraides Belandria said:
¿ Can entropy be simultaneously created and destroyed in different partes of the universe of a process?

You don't "create" and "destroy" entropy. You can locally decrease entropy, but by doing so, you must make some energy conversions,thereby still increasing the total entropy of the universe.
 
  • #4
geometer:
I agree with your comments in relation to the total entropy change of the universe. But my question refers to a term called production of entropy ( creation of entropy) , proposed by Prigogine (Nobel Prize In Chemistry). He proposes that :
dS= dQ/T + dSi
where dSi is the production or creation of internal entropy ( Thermodynamics of Irreversible Processes, Thir Ed. InterScience Publishers, 1967).
According to Prigogine, dSi is always equal or greater than zero. But, I have found a process in which this term, is simultaneosly positive( creation of internal entropy) and negative ( destruction of internal entropy) in different parts of the universe, and the total entropy change of the universe is greater than zero. The fact, that the total entropy change is greater than zero suggest that the process is allowed by thermodynamics laws.
 
  • #5
Hi
Can u please tell us the process in which internal entropy production is negative?
It might be possible that in self organizing systems that organize themselves like living matter...or other complex systems...but it also occurs at expense of energy...thus increasing overall entropy...again with the law...
the only shortcoming of 2nd law is the EXACT value of increase of entropy...
so the present STATUS of this law is that it is phenemological and QUALITATIVE...once this extension is done it will receive the status of a law.
 
  • #6
geometer said:
You don't "create" and "destroy" entropy. You can locally decrease entropy, but by doing so, you must make some energy conversions,thereby still increasing the total entropy of the universe.


Totally agree.

Well by definition dSi is positive or equal to zero ( equal to zero for a reversible transform and positive for irreversible one.) And we don't see it is not used only in chemistry
 
  • #7
saroshmumtaz said:
Hi
Can u please tell us the process in which internal entropy production is negative?
It might be possible that in self organizing systems that organize themselves like living matter...or other complex systems...but it also occurs at expense of energy...thus increasing overall entropy...again with the law...
the only shortcoming of 2nd law is the EXACT value of increase of entropy...
so the present STATUS of this law is that it is phenemological and QUALITATIVE...once this extension is done it will receive the status of a law.


Several years ago I published an article related to the theoretical existence of a process that creates and destroys entropy in differente regions of the universe. The article was published in the Journal of Chemical Education ( Vol 72, page 116, February 1995) and generated many positive and negative critics. However, nobody could find errors or fundamental transgressions.
The theoretical process consists of two tanks A and B separated by a metallic partition of a good heat conducting metal. The adiabatic film can be removed or put back in place during process operation if desired. Tank A is fitted with a piston and tank B is a rigid box. The boundaries of the tanks in contact with the surroundings are adiabatic. In both tanks there is 1 g-mol of a monoatomic ideal gas. Initially the metal partition is covered with the adiabatic film . Then, then the ideal gas in A is set at 1500 K and 101.33 kpa, and the ideal gas in B is set at 373 K and 101.33 kpa.When these conditions are reached in both tanks the adiabatic film is removed and and the following process starts. In tank A the gas is compressed isothermally in a non reversible way at 1500 K from 101.33 kpa to 405.32 kpa., and work is done on the ideal gas ,and heat is transferred through the metal partition to the ideal gas in tank B. The gas temperature in B increases, and the compression in A is stopped when the temperature in B reaches 1500 K. Then the process is finished.
The calculations ( presented in the above article) show that at these conditions the total entropy change of the iniverse is greater than zero and that entropy is produced ( created) due to the heat flow through the metal partition and destroyed in the compression process taking place in tank A. Since, the total entropy change of the universe is greater than zero , the process is permitted by the second law of thermodynamics.
After this publication, I have found other thermomechanical systems that present a similar behavior.
 
  • #8
Maybe I'm missing the point, but pretty much every thermodynamic process works the same way, Iraides. That's one of the main points of thermodynamics.
 
  • #9
russ watters:
Most of the thermodynamics processes produces ( creates) entropy but they do not destroy ( absorpt) entropy. Above process is a theoretical exception to this behavior.
 

What is entropy?

Entropy is a scientific concept that refers to the measure of disorder or randomness in a system. It is a measure of the amount of energy that is no longer available to do work.

How is entropy related to the creation and destruction of energy?

Entropy is related to the creation and destruction of energy because as energy is converted from one form to another, some of it becomes unavailable to do work and contributes to the overall increase in entropy in the universe.

What role does the second law of thermodynamics play in the creation and destruction of entropy?

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time. This means that in any process, there will be a net increase in entropy, leading to the destruction of ordered energy and the creation of more disorder.

How does the creation and destruction of entropy affect the universe?

The creation and destruction of entropy have a major impact on the universe. As entropy increases, the universe becomes more disordered, and energy becomes less available to do work. This ultimately leads to the heat death of the universe, where all energy is evenly distributed and no work can be done.

Can entropy ever be reversed or destroyed?

No, entropy cannot be reversed or destroyed. The second law of thermodynamics states that entropy will always increase, and there is no known process that can reverse this. However, it is possible to decrease the local entropy in a system by inputting energy and reducing disorder in a specific area, but the overall entropy of the universe will still increase.

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