Creationists launch their own peer reviewed 'science' journal

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around the emergence of a creationist museum and the implications of its existence, particularly regarding the labeling of creationism as "science." Participants express concern over the potential influence of creationist viewpoints on education and public policy, highlighting the risks of lawmakers being misled by creationist claims presented as peer-reviewed research. There is a strong emphasis on the distinction between scientific theory and creationist beliefs, with participants criticizing the use of the term "peer-reviewed" when it is perceived to lack genuine scientific rigor. The conversation also touches on the broader issue of the separation of church and state, with participants debating the interpretation of the First Amendment and its relevance to teaching creationism in schools. Overall, the thread reflects a deep concern for maintaining scientific integrity in education and the potential dangers posed by the promotion of creationism.
gravenewworld
Messages
1,128
Reaction score
27
Physics news on Phys.org
I suppose this is to answer the criticism that they don't have any peer reviewed works. The problem is that all their reviewers are said to be sympathetic to the cause, in which case what is the point other than trying to pull the wool over the gullible publics eyes.
 
Wow, this is disturbing. It is scary to think how many lawmakers could be fooled by one of these "peer-reviewed" articles.
 
The only problem I have with it is that they call it "science". Other than that, more power to them.
 
Finally, Darwinists will no longer stand in the way of epic strides in the field of Creationism.

Err... wait, what is there to discover again? I thought they did all of their research by reading an old book...
 
That's one problem that I've always had with the term 'peers'. You're acquitted/convicted by a jury of your 'peers'. 'Peer' simply means one in a similar situation, an equal in society. I could have thousands of 'peer reviewed' papers if any of my peers could remain sober long enough to read one. :rolleyes:
 
Danger said:
I could have thousands of 'peer reviewed' papers if any of my peers could remain sober long enough to read one. :rolleyes:

Hahaha!:smile::smile:
 
drankin said:
The only problem I have with it is that they call it "science". Other than that, more power to them.

How can you say you have a problem with them calling it "science" and "more power to them" in the same breath?

No. No power to them.
 
Danger said:
That's one problem that I've always had with the term 'peers'. You're acquitted/convicted by a jury of your 'peers'. 'Peer' simply means one in a similar situation, an equal in society. I could have thousands of 'peer reviewed' papers if any of my peers could remain sober long enough to read one. :rolleyes:
It's a wonderful irony that it really is peer reviewed.
 
  • #10
Cyrus said:
How can you say you have a problem with them calling it "science" and "more power to them" in the same breath?

No. No power to them.

?

Hey, if they want make a museum for The Flintstones, more power to them. Just don't call it science.
 
  • #11
Again, no power to them.
 
  • #12
Cyrus said:
Again, no power to them.

C'mon! A museum for The Flintstones?
 
  • #13
I don't want a damn thing paid for by creationists in my country. Period. Not even if it feeds starving orphans, because they will point and say: "look, we feed starving orphans were not that bad".
 
  • #14
Cyrus said:
Again, no power to them.

I agree. The problem is, it doesn't stop at the creationist museum. There's a teacher at my daughter's school who always refers to evolution as "just a theory," whenever the subject comes up. Since she teaches Biology I imagine it would come up rather frequently.

As you might guess, the teacher is VERY religious.
 
  • #15
lisab said:
As you might guess, the teacher is VERY religious.

While that it is true, let's be clear here--most xtians don't believe in fundamentalism. There are over 1.1 billion Catholics on the Earth. I went to Catholic school for 17 years and was always taught evolution, and never 1 shred of creationism. Creationists are simply insane, they are the minority when compared to other xtians.
 
  • #16
lisab said:
I agree. The problem is, it doesn't stop at the creationist museum. There's a teacher at my daughter's school who always refers to evolution as "just a theory," whenever the subject comes up. Since she teaches Biology I imagine it would come up rather frequently.

As you might guess, the teacher is VERY religious.


Just a theory - there are words in Science that do not mean the same thing in comm parlance. Theory is one of them.

(thanks again to Zz for this link...)
http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_1/8_1.shtml
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #17
Launching a peer reviewed journal is a good tactical move for the creationists. Articles will likely be screened to include those that support the pre-established conclusion, of course. If the editors allow a debunking article, it will likely be one that can be interpreted and mitigated. This will allow them to show that not all authors agree on everything, therefore creationism must be real science. What is troubling is that for some lawmakers, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
 
  • #18
drankin said:
C'mon! A museum for The Flintstones?

Making a creationist museum is like making a museum that supports Holocaust denial. It just should not happen.
 
  • #19
Cyrus said:
No. No power to them.
The First Amendment certainly gives them the right to publish this garbage and the right to call it "peer-reviewed". Freedom of speech means acknowledging that everybody has the right to have their say, especially those who hold views exactly counter to your own views. So, more power to them.

Freedom of speech also means have the right to educate the scientifically-illiterate decision makers that this is anything but science and anything but true.
 
  • #20
The problem is, I am not holding a 'view'. Its a fact. What they are doing is disingenuous.
 
  • #21
Cyrus said:
What they are doing is disingenuous.
So what? The First Amendment exists first and foremost to protect political speech, and much of that is also disingenuous (and that's saying it nicely).
 
  • #22
gravenewworld said:
While that it is true, let's be clear here--most xtians don't believe in fundamentalism. There are over 1.1 billion Catholics on the Earth. I went to Catholic school for 17 years and was always taught evolution, and never 1 shred of creationism. Creationists are simply insane, they are the minority when compared to other xtians.

You're right. Although it probably can be said that all creationists are religious people, it's not true that all religious people are creationists. Mea culpa!
 
  • #23
D H said:
So what? The First Amendment exists first and foremost to protect political speech, and much of that is also disingenuous (and that's saying it nicely).

Sure, but their plan is to get this crap taught in schools, which Separation of Church and State definitely forbids.
 
  • #24
lisab said:
You're right. Although it probably can be said that all creationists are religious people, it's not true that all religious people are creationists. Mea culpa!

While it is true that most Christians are not fundamentalists, it is true that most Christians believe in some version of Creation; it is, after all, the subject of the first two chapters in Genesis. In order to avoid cognitive dissonance with modern science, most rational Christians take an apologetic approach: either that Genesis is a metaphor for evolution, or that God directed evolution, or both. Another possible view is the Deist one: that God set everything in motion at the beginning of time, and thereafter left the universe to its own devices.

In general, while plenty of Christians accept the broad statements of evolutionary theory (i.e., that species change over time, and eventually diverge into different species), most Christians have difficulty accepting the statistical nature of evolution (that direction by God is completely unnecessary), or they are holding off on abiogenesis (i.e., maybe God just did that).

Of course, the distinction must be drawn between generic Creationists and Young Earth Creationists (or Recent Creationists), who are the small segment of wackos who believe the Earth is 6000 years old. Unfortunately, it is a Young Earth Creationist who is currently sitting in the Oval Office.
 
  • #25
Poop-Loops said:
Sure, but their plan is to get this crap taught in schools, which Separation of Church and State definitely forbids.

Actually, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution (it's from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, I believe), and so it is a bit unclear whether there is absolutely a prohibition on teaching religion(s) in places such as public schools, and whether public schools are in fact extensions of the State. The current interpretation of the courts, however, is that separation of church and state is indeed an intended consequence of the Establishment Clause, and moreover, that that separation should extend to the public school system.

Personally, I think freedom from religion is an important fundamental freedom that the Founders did not fully recognize or take into account; if I were able to re-write the Constitution today, I'd make sure to explicitly include it.
 
  • #26
Cyrus said:
The problem is, I am not holding a 'view'. Its a fact. What they are doing is disingenuous.

People are going to teach (or try to) others what they believe. Whether it's right or wrong. It's a free country. And the Flintstones are kewl.
 
  • #27
drankin said:
People are going to teach (or try to) others what they believe. Whether it's right or wrong. It's a free country. And the Flintstones are kewl.

Yabba-dabba-do
 
  • #28
Ben Niehoff said:
In general, while plenty of Christians accept the broad statements of evolutionary theory (i.e., that species change over time, and eventually diverge into different species), most Christians have difficulty accepting the statistical nature of evolution (that direction by God is completely unnecessary), or they are holding off on abiogenesis (i.e., maybe God just did that).
I don't see why that's necessary. If you made 10 different copies of Earth a billion years ago, you'd get 10 different sets of species today and some Earth's could be vastly different from each other. The statistical probability issue just makes us completely unique. That sounds like something a creationist could sink their teeth into to me.
 
  • #29
Ben Niehoff said:
Actually, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution (it's from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, I believe), and so it is a bit unclear whether there is absolutely a prohibition on teaching religion(s) in places such as public schools, and whether public schools are in fact extensions of the State. The current interpretation of the courts, however, is that separation of church and state is indeed an intended consequence of the Establishment Clause, and moreover, that that separation should extend to the public school system.

Personally, I think freedom from religion is an important fundamental freedom that the Founders did not fully recognize or take into account; if I were able to re-write the Constitution today, I'd make sure to explicitly include it.
The courts do not agree that this is a debateable issue, never have, and never will. The establishment clause is an iron-clad separation of church and state. Jefferson ought to know what the first amendment means - he wrote it. The fact that the words don't appear in the Constitution itself is a non sequitur smokescreen religious people like to use in an attempt to weaken it. Don't fall for the trick. Separation of church and state is explicitly included in the Constitution.
 
Last edited:
  • #30
Ben Niehoff said:
Actually, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution (it's from a letter of Thomas Jefferson, I believe), and so it is a bit unclear whether there is absolutely a prohibition on teaching religion(s) in places such as public schools, and whether public schools are in fact extensions of the State. The current interpretation of the courts, however, is that separation of church and state is indeed an intended consequence of the Establishment Clause, and moreover, that that separation should extend to the public school system.

Personally, I think freedom from religion is an important fundamental freedom that the Founders did not fully recognize or take into account; if I were able to re-write the Constitution today, I'd make sure to explicitly include it.

Wow, no clue what your talking about. Amazing.
 
  • #31
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The protection from religion comes from the fact that there can be no laws respecting the establishment of religion. But I find it interesting that the members of Congress will openly pray together while in sesssion [or maybe just before opening the session?].
 
Last edited:
  • #32
Did you know that fisherman even have their own pier reviewed journals?
 
  • #33
Ben Niehoff said:
so it is a bit unclear whether there is absolutely a prohibition on teaching religion(s) in places such as public schools, and whether public schools are in fact extensions of the State.
If tax dollars pay for a thing, doesn't that make it an extension of the State?
 
  • #34
Ivan Seeking said:
Did you know that fisherman even have their own pier reviewed journals?
Bah, stop trolling!
 
  • #35
Ivan Seeking said:
But I find it interesting that the members of Congress will openly pray together while in sesssion [or maybe just before opening the session?].
Interesting? I find it disgusting! For over 2 centuries, taxpayers have paid the salary of a Christian chaplain who begins every session of Congress with prayer! When will these people grow up?
 
  • #36
Cyrus said:
Wow, no clue what your talking about. Amazing.

I'd have to agree; you definitely have no clue what I'm talking about. Read it again. All I'm doing is explaining the point of view of a typical Christian. I myself, however, am not religious at all (and I think the pervasive amount of religion in our public politics is disgusting).

Reading comprehension, folks...come on, now.
 
  • #37
Gokul43201 said:
Interesting? I find it disgusting! For over 2 centuries, taxpayers have paid the salary of a Christian chaplain who begins every session of Congress with prayer!

Actually this practice precedes the writing of the Constitution. I remember reading that the legislature of the Confederation government also opened their sessions with a prayer. I think this has something to do with why the practice is legal. But if it makes you feel better, the Congress has also opened with prayers by Jews, Muslims, and even Hindus, a practice which equally offends conservative Christians (such as myself). In any case, you can relax. The prayers are simply part of American civic religion, which has little spiritual value at all.

Gokul43201 said:
When will these people grow up?

It would appear that maturity is an ill-defined concept. The thought rarely occurs to us religious types that prayer is childish. Though in the caseof the PC prayers uttered in Congress, I'd agree that they are rather futile.
 
  • #38
russ_watters said:
The courts do not agree that this is a debateable issue, never have, and never will. The establishment clause is an iron-clad separation of church and state. Jefferson ought to know what the first amendment means - he wrote it. The fact that the words don't appear in the Constitution itself is a non sequitur smokescreen religious people like to use in an attempt to weaken it. Don't fall for the trick. Separation of church and state is explicitly included in the Constitution.

I agree that the courts do not consider it debatable anymore, and as an atheist, I'm glad for that. But it is naive to think that our basic rights are literally spelled out in a 230-year-old document. They are, and always have been, subject to interpretation. The end effect is that we, the present-day citizens, own and design our rights, and it is our responsibility to defend them against tyranny. Surely the PATRIOT Act (and numerous acts of Congress in the prior 200 years) are sufficient evidence that our national government cannot be expected to defend them for us.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The key difficulties with the Establishment Clause are the precise, intended meanings of "respecting" and "establishment". A very loose interpretation might take "respecting" to merely mean "about", or "regarding", which would effect a prohibition on Congress making any laws that mention specific religions whatsoever. I'm fairly sure that is not the intent.

As far as I can tell, an "establishment of religion" is meant to mean a particular sect of religion. For example, Lutheranism, Hinduism, Mormonism, and Zoroastrianism are all establishments of religion. Then the interpretation rests on the meaning of "respecting". Lacking any other context (I'm no historian, and I haven't spent time to read all of the various Founders' letters), I would take "respecting" to mean, literally, "giving respect to", in an official capacity. That is, the Establishment Clause, on this interpretation, merely means:

"Congress shall make no law which gives any particular religion a higher official status than others, nor shall Congress make any law prohibiting the practice of any particular religion."

That is, that all religions should be treated equally by law, neither made into official religions, nor prohibited from being practiced.

A reasonable interpretation of this should indeed include a protection for atheists. But as evidenced by our current administration, we do not always have reasonable people in office. A common tactic by fundamentalist activists is to proclaim that atheism, not being a religion, per se, should not be granted protections.

My main objection to the wording of the First Amendment is that I do not feel it is quite specific enough to absolutely preclude such an interpretation. The right to follow no religion at all should be made specifically clear, so that it is protected even if fundamentalists find their way into our higher courts.
 
  • #39
Ben Niehoff said:
I'd have to agree; you definitely have no clue what I'm talking about. Read it again. All I'm doing is explaining the point of view of a typical Christian. I myself, however, am not religious at all (and I think the pervasive amount of religion in our public politics is disgusting).

Reading comprehension, folks...come on, now.

No, you're not getting off that easy.

Personally, I think freedom from religion is an important fundamental freedom that the Founders did not fully recognize or take into account; if I were able to re-write the Constitution today, I'd make sure to explicitly include it.

That is wrong. Totally, and utterly wrong. Dont pawn it off by saying you were just explaining the point of view of the christian chruch when you say "Personally, I..."

To Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge and Others, a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut
Gentleman,

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.


T.W. Jefferson



January 1, 1802

Jefferson and others knew damm well what he was doing. There was no debateable issue from day 1.

Here, have fun: http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

As a fellow athiest, I would expect you of all people to know this already. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
  • #40
Cyrus said:
As a fellow athiest, I would expect you of all people to know this already. :rolleyes:
Because, of course, atheists all adopt a shared system of core beliefs with no dissent, and each have exactly the same knowledge.
 
  • #41
Hurkyl said:
Because, of course, atheists all adopt a shared system of core beliefs with no dissent, and each have exactly the same knowledge.

Im glad we agree, fellow atheist! :-p
 
  • #42
Personally, I think freedom from religion is an important fundamental freedom that the Founders did not fully recognize or take into account; if I were able to re-write the Constitution today, I'd make sure to explicitly include it.

Cyrus said:
That is wrong. Totally, and utterly wrong. Dont pawn it off by saying you were just explaining the point of view of the christian chruch when you say "Personally, I..."
Uhm Cyrus, he said "freedom from religion", not "freedom of religion".
 
  • #43
I know, its exactly what Jefferson said by 'wall of separation' in his letter to Danbury.

"Mr. Jefferson, build up that wall!" -Hitchens
 
Last edited:
  • #44
Ivan Seeking said:
Did you know that fisherman even have their own pier reviewed journals?
Hurkyl said:
Bah, stop trolling!

If you two are finished carping about it, can we get on with the discussion?
 
  • #45
Ivan Seeking said:
The protection from religion comes from the fact that there can be no laws respecting the establishment of religion.
No federal laws. Maryland used to have its own state sanctioned religion.
 
  • #46
russ_watters said:
The courts do not agree that this is a debateable issue, never have, and never will. The establishment clause is an iron-clad separation of church and state. Jefferson ought to know what the first amendment means - he wrote it. The fact that the words don't appear in the Constitution itself is a non sequitur smokescreen religious people like to use in an attempt to weaken it. Don't fall for the trick. Separation of church and state is explicitly included in the Constitution.

Cyrus said:
No, you're not getting off that easy.



That is wrong. Totally, and utterly wrong. Dont pawn it off by saying you were just explaining the point of view of the christian chruch when you say "Personally, I..."



Jefferson and others knew damm well what he was doing. There was no debatable issue from day 1. ...
Wrong. If Jefferson had tried to use his Danbury letter separation language in the 1st amendment it never would have been approved and he knew it. A few like Paine had views that went beyond opposition to an federally sanctioned religion (a popular view) to outright opposition to even the idea of any religion. Paine's views were known and rejected by the majority, and there's know chance it ever would have been included the 1st amendment.
The constitution is that which was ratified at the time by all the founders and states; its simply fallacious to say that since what Jefferson really wanted was the Danbury language and therefore that's what it means. If you don't like the language, amend it. Don't try a spin it w/ nine guys in robes as someday I might do the same to you.
 
  • #47
lisab said:
I agree. The problem is, it doesn't stop at the creationist museum. There's a teacher at my daughter's school who always refers to evolution as "just a theory," whenever the subject comes up. Since she teaches Biology I imagine it would come up rather frequently.

As you might guess, the teacher is VERY religious.

Wow! That’s scary

If I had a child in school and I heard that the teacher referred to evolution as “just a theory” I would talk with the school board and have that teacher keep her opinions to herself and maybe suggest that the teacher go back to school and learn what a “theory” is.


What grade is your daughter in?
 
  • #48
I'm starting to feel sorry for the ID'ers. I noticed that they haven't pointed out any weird creatures lately, so today when I saw two creatures designed specifically for mankind by god, I just had to share them:

Hungarian Canis Komondor Floormopus
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/dog-breeds/images/Komondor.jpg

Paleocene era* Planetetherium Doormatus
http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/primates.htm
planetetherium.jpg


*The Paleocene era being a week from last Tuesday
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top