Dealing with creepy students as a TA

[Dishsoap]

Sorry guys, I know I keep posting here about issues I'm having as a TA even though I'm not a full-on teacher like most of you guys are, but on my last thread you guys were very helpful.

So, here's the situation that I'm having issues with. Last semester there was this guy in the class I was a TA for. He seemed to be a little... overly personal. He'd come up to ask me a question and he'd put his arm around me. I'd move away and tell him to stop, and that would be the end of that. I never thought too much about it, until this semester when I became his TA again (I TA both Physics I and Physics II). It started out with a very inappropriate text message, asking for a "booty call", and telling me I was sexy. How he got my number, I'll never know. I didn't know it was him until the following lab, when he asked me if I would ever consider dating a nerd. I told him I was (I'm in a relationship), and he told me to let him know if I ever break up with him. He keeps asking me week after week if we've broken up yet. After lab, he waits until everyone else has left, and then walks me down the hall back to the TA room. He's the first to volunteer every time I want to do a demonstration or anything.

I put up with it for about 2 weeks, and then I asked the secretary if I could request that he moves sections (there are two, I only TA one). I was told that in order to officially request that, I'd have to file sexual harassment charges. Now, I don't really feel like I'm being harassed (he's not physically threatening me or anything), and it just doesn't feel worth it. I'm not about to ruin the kid's future just because I'm uncomfortable around him in lab.

Thoughts? Remarks?

 

[vela]

Sounds like sexual harassment to me. I'd report him if I were you.

You shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable around this kid just because you're worried about ruining his life. It may be he's simply young and clueless and doesn't realize how he's coming off, or perhaps he has a history of doing this to others. You don't know, but there should be someone on campus whose job it is to deal with issues like this who's in a better position to see the full situation. You just have to trust that this person know how to deal with the student appropriately.

 

[e.bar.goum]

Yeah, that's sexual harassment, and you don't have to put up with it.

Report him, it's not your job to worry about ruining his life.

ETA: You are absolutely not required to do this, but have you tried being extremely clear and extremely assertive with him? Do not allow him to walk back to the TA office with you. I'm sorry, this really sucks. I've had a couple of creepy students, but nothing like this.

 

[256bits]

Sorry for your predicament.
You are correct to be worried about inappropriate behavior.
Since he got your number, sent you a message, without identifying himself, that is cause for concern.

Your own credibility is on the line here, as appearances matter - a perception of favouritism is just one small aspect and grading.

I hope you do not reply to text messages.
Keep a record and agenda as proof.
If he ever calls, you are busy, and hang up.
Do not walk with him to the TA office. You could ask another student every day that you wish to discuss his/her "whatever" as an excuse at the end of the class.

What he is doing is stalking you. He is ruining his own future.

Sometimes being nice can backfire, and I do agree with e.bar.goumand vela.

 

[ZapperZ]

Sorry guys, I know I keep posting here about issues I'm having as a TA even though I'm not a full-on teacher like most of you guys are, but on my last thread you guys were very helpful.

So, here's the situation that I'm having issues with. Last semester there was this guy in the class I was a TA for. He seemed to be a little... overly personal. He'd come up to ask me a question and he'd put his arm around me. I'd move away and tell him to stop, and that would be the end of that. I never thought too much about it, until this semester when I became his TA again (I TA both Physics I and Physics II). It started out with a very inappropriate text message, asking for a "booty call", and telling me I was sexy. How he got my number, I'll never know. I didn't know it was him until the following lab, when he asked me if I would ever consider dating a nerd. I told him I was (I'm in a relationship), and he told me to let him know if I ever break up with him. He keeps asking me week after week if we've broken up yet. After lab, he waits until everyone else has left, and then walks me down the hall back to the TA room. He's the first to volunteer every time I want to do a demonstration or anything.

I put up with it for about 2 weeks, and then I asked the secretary if I could request that he moves sections (there are two, I only TA one). I was told that in order to officially request that, I'd have to file sexual harassment charges. Now, I don't really feel like I'm being harassed (he's not physically threatening me or anything), and it just doesn't feel worth it. I'm not about to ruin the kid's future just because I'm uncomfortable around him in lab.

Thoughts? Remarks?

Against my better judgement, I'm going to respond to this, and I won't be surprised if I get hate mail for this.

As with your other question, I am not sure if you are just slow, or if you are just completely oblivious to what's around you. I also don't know if you actually are waiting for someone to come up and smack you on the back of your head for you to wake up and figure out what you actually need to do.

1. To put his arms around you that very FIRST time was already an inappropriate action! You should have told him, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, that that was an inappropriate behavior, that he should cease from doing that, and any other type of inappropriate action will be reported.

2. That very next time, when you first received the text message, you should have immediately approach the instructor of that class and reported this immediately to him/her. If that instructor has any level of sensibility, he/she should take appropriate actions by reporting this either to the campus police, or the Dean of Students office, where such issues are handled.

3. The fact that you let this went on "...week after week..." is mind-boggling, and it only ENCOURAGED this person to continue his actions. After all, he's getting away with it so far, isn't he? That was why I said that you need someone to come up and smack you on the back of your head. By your continued inaction, he thinks he has a chance with you, and so, why not continue to keep doing what he's doing?

4. I hope to heck that we, the people of this forum, are NOT the only people you have mentioned this to, for your own safety. And I hope to heck that you have not deleted those text messages.

5. This situation is NOT something you can handle anymore, especially when you've been handling it all wrong. It is WAY past time for you to have the appropriate authority to handle it.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

ETA: You are absolutely not required to do this, but have you tried being extremely clear and extremely assertive with him?

I strongly discourage you from doing this. DO NOT ENGAGE in this student in any way from now beyond the classroom/lab. The time for being assertive is OVER, and this person has stepped way beyond the boundary of any normal behavior. Do not be near this person at any time other than in class/lab with other students around. I will also strongly advise you to be aware of your surroundings and make sure you are seldom alone, especially on campus.

Zz.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't really feel like I'm being harassed

You seem like a nice and decent person and I understand not wanting to get someone in trouble, but you need to first be honest to yourself. You wouldn't have made this post if you didn't feel harassed. What you described was absolutely harassment. At the very least you need to tell this person that the next time he addresses you inappropriately you will report him. After that, no holding back. Someone higher than a secretary needs to know as well. Remember in these cases that it's not always just about you. This person may be harassing others too and the more you remain silent the more this person can harass others. And remember, it's not your fault.

 

[atyy]

I agree with ZapperZ's posts #5 and #6.

 

[e.bar.goum]

ZapperZ is totally correct, on all counts. I was wrong to suggest being firm, in retrospect, I think that's long past being an option.

 

[ZapperZ]

A bit more of a followup. This is an excellent opportunity for some education here regarding sexual harassment, especially in light that the OP didn't think that there is a "harassment" happening (you should hear how loud of a slap on my forehead when I read that).

First of all, all colleges and universities receiving any form of federal funding in the US MUST comply with the Title XI of the Education Amendment on sexual violence. This governs many different aspects, including sexual harassment. In fact, in 2014, several campuses had been under investigation for failure in handling sexual violence and harassment complaints. Due to that, practically all universities in the US have strengthen their enforcement and clarify their policy on such an issue. Faculty members, staff, and students are often given either a briefing, information, and even orientation on sexual harassment on campus and what to do in such cases.

Secondly, I will take an example from Northwestern University definition of "sexual harassment". This includes:

Engaging in unwelcome sexual propositions, invitations, solicitations, and flirtation;

Using unwelcome sexually degrading language, sexual jokes, innuendos, or gestures;

Displaying or transmitting sexually suggestive electronic content, including inappropriate e-mails;

Repeatedly asking someone for a date after the person has expressed disinterest.

How many times did we say "Bingo"?

If you are studying in the US, you must educate yourself in your university's policy on these things. Go do a search. It will protect you, and it may also educate you how NOT to behave and put yourself unintentionally in jeopardy.

Zz.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

I would also like to chime in. I am a male student. I would talk to the student one more time. Tell him clearly that he is making you extremely uncomfortable and his behavior constitutes as harassment. If he continues report him. Let me make one thing clear. I believe Zapper as semen is the correct way of doing things, however, it seems you are leaving key details out. Is the student good looking? Do you stare at him, ie check him out, smile, or do anything that may suggest you are flirting even tho that is not your intention? It would be morally wrong and unprofessional if you report the student without a final warning. You allowed him to continue to interact with you outside of a class setting. Your actions made the student believe you are playing hard to get. Do not blame the student if you did not assist the situation and dealt with it accordingly.

One final warning. Explain that you are uncomfortable, the consequences of his actions(including up to dismissal), possibility of having to register as a sex offender, etc.

If he does it, file grievance with the disciplinary dean, police, teacher etc.

 

[e.bar.goum]

I would also like to chime in. I am a male student. I would talk to the student one more time. Tell him clearly that he is making you extremely uncomfortable and his behavior constitutes as harassment. If he continues report him. Let me make one thing clear. I believe Zapper as semen is the correct way of doing things, however, it seems you are leaving key details out. Is the student good looking? Do you stare at him, ie check him out, smile, or do anything that may suggest you are flirting even tho that is not your intention? It would be morally wrong and unprofessional if you report the student without a final warning. You allowed him to continue to interact with you outside of a class setting. Your actions made the student believe you are playing hard to get. Do not blame the student if you did not assist the situation and dealt with it accordingly.

One final warning. Explain that you are uncomfortable, the consequences of his actions(including up to dismissal), possibility of having to register as a sex offender, etc.

If he does it, file grievance with the disciplinary dean, police, teacher etc.

Responses like this are exactly why women are afraid of reporting sexual assault, or why, in the case of the OP, don't report it until it goes way past where it should. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Responses like this are exactly why women are afraid of reporting sexual assault, or why, in the case of the OP, don't report it until it goes way past where it should. You should be ashamed of yourself.

No you should be ashamed of yourself, for being illogical and critiquing my character. You do not know anything about me.

I asked well sounded questions. I do not see by me asking the OP if she did anything that may have led the male the student believe she is flirting. If anything you should be ashamed of yourself for reaching.

The evidence the OP presented (her initial post):

Did not make it clear that it was unwanted behavior fro the student.

Her actions lead the reader to believe that she may have chosen to ignore the situation. By ignoring the situation, she taught the student would take a hint and cease.

Why did she not tell the student after him placing his arm around her, along these lines: Hey if you do that again I will have you arrested and expelled. Do not ever do that again. Anyone who is not neurological deficient would have understood clearly that no is no.

If this has been an ongoing problem since the previous semester, why has she waited until now?

Let's not take the feminist high ground here.

I believe Greg offered the best advice in this thread.

Be thankful I am not reporting you.

 

[micromass]

I would also like to chime in. I am a male student. I would talk to the student one more time. Tell him clearly that he is making you extremely uncomfortable and his behavior constitutes as harassment. If he continues report him. Let me make one thing clear. I believe Zapper as semen is the correct way of doing things, however, it seems you are leaving key details out. Is the student good looking? Do you stare at him, ie check him out, smile, or do anything that may suggest you are flirting even tho that is not your intention? It would be morally wrong and unprofessional if you report the student without a final warning. You allowed him to continue to interact with you outside of a class setting. Your actions made the student believe you are playing hard to get. Do not blame the student if you did not assist the situation and dealt with it accordingly.

One final warning. Explain that you are uncomfortable, the consequences of his actions(including up to dismissal), possibility of having to register as a sex offender, etc.

If he does it, file grievance with the disciplinary dean, police, teacher etc.

OP: please ignore this person. Please follow Zz's advice and contact the authorities.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

You are being harassed AND you have clear evidence in your text message history. You should report it. His behavior is totally inappropriate.

 

[Choppy]

The behaviour as cited is consistent with even very conservative definitions of sexual harassment.

The moment a student puts his arm around a TA - he's done something that is completely inappropriate - and unless he suffers from some kind of social disorder, he's very much aware that he has. Similar with the inappropriate text messages. Similar with repeated questions about your social life. Someone legitimately interested in a relationship would wait until the term was over and bring up the possibility of going out once the academic relationship is over.

I don't think you have to be hard on yourself for not recognizing it. These situations are always difficult to identify when they happen to you personally. You have to balance uncomfortable feelings with social pressures to "not rock the boat" so to speak.

For the record you're not ruining his future if you report him. First, it sounds like he made the decision to put his future at risk a long time ago. Second, there's a difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault. You may have to check into the specifics in your area, but sexual assault generally speaking is the criminal charge. Sexual harassment is a civil matter. Proceeding with a "charge" will come with academic consequences for him. Likely he would be put on probation for a term, but that's not necessarily going to happen.

I would urge you to do something though. These are the type of problems that do not go away on their own.

 

[Nugatory]

SamNorris93: As others have already said: You are being harassed (Indeed, your story reads like the textbook examples from the many management training classes that I have taken at various employers over the years). You're also not alone - this happens a lot more often than it should but for obvious reasons of fairness and privacy the resolution is seldom made public so you don't hear about it.

Report it. If you are in any organization of any size at all, this will not be the first time that the administration has seen and dealt with this problem.

MidgetDwarf: You say that you are still a student, so you may not be fully aware of the legal and business issues here. In much of the STEM industry, if someone working underneath you were to bring this complaint to you, then giving them the answer you gave to SamNorris93 would get you fired.

 

[Choppy]

Midget Dwarf, I don't even know where to start with some of the statements you made. I'll assume that you're trying to help, but the statements are consistent with typical victim-blaming behaviour that's quite common in cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault.

Is the student good looking? Do you stare at him, ie check him out, smile, or do anything that may suggest you are flirting even tho that is not your intention?

Of course she looks at him and smiles at him. She's a TA. If you're an instructor you have to look at your students. You don't have to smile, but it's generally accepted that you should. This is quite different from flirting.

Even if she was attracted to this student (which she has given no indication of and quite frankly it seems a stretch to even suggest this), she can't flirt or do anything else to act on such an attraction because she's a TA. It's a given that both the TA and the student are very well aware of this.

It would be morally wrong and unprofessional if you report the student without a final warning.

Incorrect. The stated behavior constitutes blatant sexual harassment. She already told him not to put his arm around her. She can use a final, documented warning as a tool to deal with the sexual harassment, but there is no professional or moral obligation to do so at this point.

You allowed him to continue to interact with you outside of a class setting. Your actions made the student believe you are playing hard to get.

You're putting the OP into a position where she essentially would have had to either play the role of a callous, unapproachable instructor or one that has encouraged inappropriate behaviour. When I was a TA I often talked with students after class - for all sorts of reasons. At no point did I ever need to tell them, "Sorry, I can't talk to you now because I don't want to think I'm leading you on."

Why did she not tell the student after him placing his arm around her, along these lines: Hey if you do that again I will have you arrested and expelled. Do not ever do that again. Anyone who is not neurological deficient would have understood clearly that no is no.

He'd come up to ask me a question and he'd put his arm around me. I'd move away and tell him to stop, and that would be the end of that.

Again you're putting her in an unrealistic dichotomous scenario where the only way to indicate the advance was unwanted was to threaten arrest.

If this has been an ongoing problem since the previous semester, why has she waited until now?

As opposed to when exactly?

 

[256bits]

I don't think you have to be hard on yourself for not recognizing it. These situations are always difficult to identify when they happen to you personally. You have to balance uncomfortable feelings with social pressures to "not rock the boat" so to speak.

I think that is a VERY important element, and you said it well.
.

 

[Dishsoap]

I've certainly taken a lot of this advice to heart. Here is my university's policy on sexual harrassment:

While not all-inclusive, the following behavior is generally considered "conduct of a sexual nature" that, if unwelcome, may be characterized as sexual harassment:

• Sexual Comments, Questions, Discussions, or Statements: Comments regarding physical attributes, sexual or "dirty" jokes, discussions about sexual activity or sexual performance, distributing sexually explicit pictures, drawings, or written material, and sexual hand and facial gestures.
• Actions to Gain Personal Attention: Sending unwanted emails, text messages, written notes, telephone calls, visits, pressure for sexual favors, numerous date requests or other acts of unnecessary personal interaction.

I'd say that everything that has happened so far has been in the latter category. Here's my plan of action. If I can prove that he is the one who sent those text messages (which is possible, since we have a few mutual friends who probably know his number), then I will tell the professor for whom I am a TA. He obviously knows his advances are unwelcome. The next time he asks me something of that nature, I'll respond with a "If you ask me that again, I'll make sure you are moved to another section of the class."

 

[Ben Niehoff]

I've certainly taken a lot of this advice to heart. Here is my university's policy on sexual harrassment:

​

I'd say that everything that has happened so far has been in the latter category.

Asking you for a "booty call" is in the first category as well.

The next time he asks me something of that nature, I'll respond with a "If you ask me that again, I'll make sure you are moved to another section of the class."

I wouldn't bother.

1. That doesn't sound remotely threatening. It will likely just make the situation worse. The stakes are actually higher than being moved to another section; you actually come across like you're trying to cover the incidents up to protect him.

2. He has already had plenty of second chances, third chances, etc. This is ongoing harassment which you made clear was unwelcome a long time ago. Don't threaten; act. Report the incidents.

3. It's not your job to engage him. That's the authorities' job, and that's why the reporting system exists. If you try to engage him yourself, you might have a worse problem if he tries to retaliate.

 

[ZapperZ]

I'd say that everything that has happened so far has been in the latter category. Here's my plan of action. If I can prove that he is the one who sent those text messages (which is possible, since we have a few mutual friends who probably know his number), then I will tell the professor for whom I am a TA. He obviously knows his advances are unwelcome. The next time he asks me something of that nature, I'll respond with a "If you ask me that again, I'll make sure you are moved to another section of the class."

Unfortunately, it appears that you are still not getting it, and obviously, my smack-on-the-back-of-head wasn't strong enough to wake you up!

1. You've been doing this all wrong. Your can no longer trust your judgement call in all of this.

2. The urging for you to report him immediately to the relevant authority didn't sink in!

3. You do not have the authority, nor are you qualified, to "investigate" him. This is not your job. You should let the relevant authority do theirs.

4. You do not have the authority to get him assigned to another class (as if this will solve the problem. Get real!). What happens to him as a result of this is not within your control, nor should you be the one who decides.

5. There is NO NEXT TIME! He has crossed the line MANY TIMES ALREADY! I do not know how much clearer things need to be said to you for them to sink in!

It is time for you to grow some backbone and stop being a potential victim. Only YOU can help yourself and stop letting someone else takes advantage of you. I've said everything that needed to be said.

Zz.

 

[vela]

Here's my plan of action. If I can prove that he is the one who sent those text messages (which is possible, since we have a few mutual friends who probably know his number), then I will tell the professor for whom I am a TA. He obviously knows his advances are unwelcome. The next time he asks me something of that nature, I'll respond with a "If you ask me that again, I'll make sure you are moved to another section of the class."

Just report him. I can imagine why you might feel reluctant. Maybe you feel like you should have handle it better, perhaps been clearer to him that you didn't appreciate his advances, or that you're making a big deal out of a minor situation, or that you just don't want to get him in trouble. But what it comes down to is that the student clearly crossed the line multiple times. Maybe he's totally clueless and doesn't get it, or maybe he knows exactly what he's doing. It doesn't really matter. He makes you feel uncomfortable. He creeps you out. He's responsible for that. You don't have to put up with that, and you shouldn't put up with that.

So just report him. The school has people who know how to best deal with situations like this. Let them do their job so you can do yours.

 

[axmls]

If you don't report his behavior, then he'll have no reason not to do the same thing the next time he finds a girl attractive.

I'm going to join the crowd here and say that, based on your descriptions, and based upon the couple of sexual harassment lessons I've had to sit through in a couple of my jobs, that you should absolutely report him. If it is him that sent you a text message, then that is a gigantic red flag. His future really isn't something you should be concerned with (maybe you wouldn't even affect his future that much if you reported him, but it's about your safety).

Let me put it this way. I'm a male college student. I have not once asked someone who was in charge of me for a date, put my arm around them in an inappropriate situation, or texted them anything inappropriate in my years in college. I have not done any of these things because I am a respectful human being. So yes, it absolutely is his fault and as a college student, he should know better. And perhaps the sooner he learns how inappropriate his actions are, the better off he'll be (imagine you're one of his managers when he gets out into the real world!).

I should also add: I'm sure your university has some group that determines whether or not to consider something "sexual harassment" when there is a report. If he is guilty, then he gets what he deserves, and you were right to report him. If he's not guilty (which, based on your description, I would say he is guilty), then they will determine that, but you were still right to report him.

One last (very important) issue. At some universities, it is mandatory for employees to report any instance of sexual harassment, from what I know. I'm not sure how thoroughly you've covered your university's policies, but that's something you should check.

 

[atyy]

One resource many universities have is an ombudsperson, from whom you can seek an opinion., eg.
https://www.msu.edu/~ombud/
http://ombudsman.harvard.edu/pages/fostering-respect

 

[TheGeometrist]

I've certainly taken a lot of this advice to heart.

No offense, but I don't feel that you have. Threatening him with changing sections might have been appropriate the first or second time. At this point, having him moved to another section isn't good enough. If you feel harassed (and from what you've said it certainly seems you have been) then that student needs to be reported. End of story. You have no reason to feel guilty for reporting sexual harassment. Whatever consequences he faces, he's earned.

 

[Dishsoap]

I went to my advisor today (a very trusted friend and professor) and explained the situation. We then went up to the department chair and explained that. The whole meeting was very informal. The chair said that the meeting was only advisory and therefore wasn't required to report anything, but that he would not hesitate to do so if that's what I wanted. He then explained what that would entail (going in front of a committee, filling out a detailed report, possibly getting the police involved), and all 3 of us decided against that. He suggested that I send him an e-mail (something that can be documented), and simply say that "if you don't stop, you will be reported."

Honestly, that is good enough for me.

 

[ZapperZ]

I went to my advisor today (a very trusted friend and professor) and explained the situation. We then went up to the department chair and explained that. The whole meeting was very informal. The chair said that the meeting was only advisory and therefore wasn't required to report anything, but that he would not hesitate to do so if that's what I wanted. He then explained what that would entail (going in front of a committee, filling out a detailed report, possibly getting the police involved), and all 3 of us decided against that. He suggested that I send him an e-mail (something that can be documented), and simply say that "if you don't stop, you will be reported."

Honestly, that is good enough for me.

And that is fine if you are OK with that. The most important thing here is that you have reported this to a person of authority, and that someone else is made aware of this. You at least received an advice on what you need to do, and you should know by now that there is a system in place that you can go to if this escalates further.

I apologize if I was exceptionally hard on you earlier. I just think you needed someone to just shake you up a bit and "fight back" at someone who dared to exert such control over you. You should never let anyone treat you like that, especially when you haven't done anything wrong to deserve such harassment.

Zz.

P.S. Did your advisor suggested that you should BCC him on the e-mail you intend to send off to this jerk?

 

[Dishsoap]

I probably should've done that. Oh well. The student already e-mailed me back and apologized profusely, so it seems like it won't be an issue anymore. I'm just really fortunate that even though the chair is technically required to create an incident report, he was more willing to settle the issue without all the paperwork and whatnot.

 

[leright]

Glad to hear you were able to resolve this.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

That was probably the best course of action in my opinion. I received many attacks due to my post on this thread. Everyone failed to realize, except Greg and a few others, that by reasoning in a language the student understands, would stop the problem. If anything I lost a lot of respect for fellow physicsforum members. Physics forum is a place where the members use logic and reasoning to help others. The hang him now attitude is this thread is despicable.

Posters forgot to understand that individuals rationalize situations differently. The student was an idiot I admit that. However, he and the OP have learned a valuable lesson.

His Casanova attitude if not changed will ruin his future. The OP on the other hand, has learned to a a address the situation instantaneous and not wait till more complications arise.I will mention one thing tho. The department chair also had a hidden agenda in this fiasco. By law he is required to submit all records of criminal behavior (including harrasement) yearly. This information becomes public record. If this incident were to go on the record it may make others think twice of attending said college. Which in turn, leads to lost revenue for the school.

 

[ZapperZ]

That was probably the best course of action in my opinion. I received many attacks due to my post on this thread. Everyone failed to realize, except Greg and a few others, that by reasoning in a language the student understands, would stop the problem. If anything I lost a lot of respect for fellow physicsforum members. Physics forum is a place where the members use logic and reasoning to help others. The hang him now attitude is this thread is despicable.

No, I think you have misunderstood many of the responses. In my case, it was the urge to stop contacting the student and contact a figure of authority! It is only upon discussion with such authority that the NEXT agreed-upon step should be taken, and in this case, to contact the student directly and informed him of the possible consequences! If it happens that everyone agreed that it should be reported to the next level, then THAT should have been done instead.

The point here is that it had to be reported to someone, since she hadn't reacted to this incident that well in the first place! There needed to be another party involved here to help her evaluate the NEXT step. Furthermore, at the very least, someone else is aware of what she is going through. I can bet you that both her Advisor and the Chair will keep an eye out on her and this individual from now on. If anything happens to her, they both have a LOT of explaining to do. She also now knows that she has someone to seek help from and that she is not alone in dealing with this. For someone who had been harassed, this is an extremely valuable and possibly comforting knowledge.

The intention was NOT on the harasser. The intention was for the harassed to seek help. She did, and she got an advice on what to do next. That was it.

Zz.

 

[atyy]

I probably should've done that. Oh well. The student already e-mailed me back and apologized profusely, so it seems like it won't be an issue anymore. I'm just really fortunate that even though the chair is technically required to create an incident report, he was more willing to settle the issue without all the paperwork and whatnot.

You should also keep the chair informed, not just Physics Forums.

 

[Dishsoap]

Yes, I am going to keep the chair and my professor informed.

The weirdest thing about the whole circumstance is the difference between how you guys responded and how my professor responded initially. You guys had a "hang him now" attitude as referenced earlier, but my professor was on the opposite side of the fence. When I first told him, he said "Well, you only have 2 more months of this semester right, and then you never have to see him again? Just deal with it, right?" Though I expected him to be chill about the whole thing (this professor is the king of sexual/offensive jokes), I certainly expected more than that, so I pushed him a little bit more, and then we got the chair involved.

Overall, I just feel stupid about the whole thing. If all it took was an e-mail to the guy threatening administrative option, I could've done that on my own. If I would've known that the chair of the department wasn't going to rain down fire and brimstone, I would've left my professor out of it.

So yes, I did learn a lot of valuable lessons. Mostly that I have no reason to be afraid of reporting an incident like that.

 

[micromass]

When I first told him, he said "Well, you only have 2 more months of this semester right, and then you never have to see him again? Just deal with it, right?"

That seems very unprofessional. He has no way of knowing you'll never see him again, certainly if he sent you text messages.

 

[Dishsoap]

That seems very unprofessional. He has no way of knowing you'll never see him again, certainly if he sent you text messages.

Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.

 

[micromass]

Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.

Please do my a favor. If the student in questions tries anything again, report him immediately to the correct authorities and not to your professor.

 

[micromass]

That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.

 

[Dishsoap]

That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.

This was the idea of the chair. He said that if he were to contact the student himself, it would no longer be an "advisory" meeting, and he would be required to report the incident.

 

[vela]

The problem with claiming we have a "hang him now" attitude is that you're assuming that reporting an incident will result in completely ruining the student's life. Reporting him is merely getting the process started. The people who deal with this sort of issue know how to respond appropriately. If it was the guy's first offense, someone probably would have just sat down with him and educated him about boundaries and what constitutes sexual harassment; they wouldn't expel the guy.

Frankly, I'm surprised by your professor's response and somewhat with the department chair's (depending on the level of detail you provided). At one of the schools I work at, it was made very clear that we're under a legal obligation to report any incident, regardless of whether the student wants us to or not, if the student divulges enough information. Indeed, if we suspect a student is about to tell us about an incident, we're supposed to interrupt and inform him or her about our obligation to report. Not reporting an incident could get an employee in legal trouble.

 

[Dishsoap]

I did some research on the whole reporting mechanism at my university before I talked to my professor. The people who are required to report any incidents are the department chair, RSO advisers, and faculty advisers, along with a bunch of other people. That includes a lot of people in the department, but not the professor I talked to.

But yes, any further harassment from the guy, and he will definitely be reported. That's all there is to it.

 

[micromass]

Right, and you told the department chair, so he should report it.

I'm very disappointed in the unprofessional way that your professor and the chair handled things. The chair had a duty to report and neglected it. Furthermore, they let you send the email, because otherwise the chair could get in trouble for not reporting. This is absolutely horrible.

 

[Dishsoap]

How is that horrible? Stopping the harassment was the end goal, nothing else. That goal is achieved. Yes, the way that they handled it was unprofessional, and yes I feel absolutely stupid because the conversation with the chair and the professor wasn't at all how I wanted the conversation to go. I started the issue on the "please don't kill the poor guy" side of the fence, and ended up trying to convince the chair that it was, in fact, a serious issue. So after the whole conversation, I do feel like I took it too far (though I didn't), but again, the end goal was achieved.

 

[vela]

Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.

 

[micromass]

I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.

 

[Dishsoap]

Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.

They did ask me the name of the student, and I did tell them. I think the reason he couldn't officially get involved was because then it would cross the line between me going to him for advice and me going to him to do something about it.

 

[micromass]

For the record, I don't want them to "hang" the guy. It might indeed be that he's a bit naive or a bit awkward. But you don't know the full truth. Maybe he does this to a lot of people? If nobody reports him, then he can just continue harassing more women.

It's a very sad how many males take these kind of complaints not seriously. This is really a huge problem. Imagine if your professor (or the chair) were a woman. You would very likely get a much better treatment. Of course, many males would also take it very seriously, but there are some people (like the two you talked to) who completely botched the job.

But yes, you did get the end result, which is good for you. I just can't help thinking of all the other women who don't get their end result because of things like this.

 

[Dishsoap]

I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.

Well, in theory, I should've laid out everything that he did at the beginning of the meeting. In practice, they kept asking me questions, and after I answered them, they would discuss among themselves about how serious it was. For instance, they asked me how he was embarrassing me in front of the class, and I said that he would ask me personal questions. For instance, I said, last week he asked me when my boyfriend and I were breaking up (I'm single, but that's irrelevant). My professor responded that that wasn't really a personal question, and the chair said that it depended on the context and confirmed that it was definitely creepy after I said he asked me some form of that question week after week.

When I mentioned that he would complete his lab, and then return near the end of class so that he could walk out with me, they again said that that's creepy, and asked what time my lab finished. I said 6:00, which wasn't nearly as creepy as if it were 9:00 (since the other section goes from 6-9), they said.

I also mentioned that his RA (a friend of mine) had a similar issue with him, so it clearly wasn't just a "me" thing, but that he's just a creepy guy. The chair responded that if he reported him, he could possibly prevent him from harassing another authority figure. The professor also offered to talk to the guy.

The more I read the synopsis of the conversation... the more I realized that they really did screw up. Lol.

 

[micromass]

Hmm yea, they screwed up. I don't think it is really their job to decide how serious it is. And sadly, males have a very different perspective on the situation than women.

And really, how is "Are you and your boyfriend breaking up" in any way not a personal question? And what does it matter what the time was that the lab was finished? Sure, I would find it more creepy if a creepy guy was following me at 9:00 than if he was following me at 6:00. But it objectively doesn't matter.

I think they should have been very firm from the moment you mentioned that somebody else had a problem with him. If it was questionable what to do before you mentioned it, it should have been very clear after.

Well, I guess you really learned something: don't go to those two guys with problems...

 

[Dishsoap]

Well, to be fair, there is only one female faculty member in the department, and I have no doubt that her reaction to the situation would've been far worse than the two guys. So I really didn't have an option but to talk to a guy.