Derivatives of contravariant and covariant vectors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transformation properties of derivatives with respect to contravariant and covariant coordinates, particularly in the context of four-vectors and gradients. Participants explore the implications of these transformations in both general and special relativity, examining how derivatives of scalar fields and vector components behave under coordinate changes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks why the derivative with respect to a contravariant coordinate transforms as a covariant 4-vector, while the derivative with respect to a covariant coordinate transforms as a contravariant 4-vector.
  • Another participant explains that for a scalar field, the differential transforms in a way that implies the four-gradient must transform covariantly, suggesting the notation should be \(\mathrm{d} \phi = \mathrm{d} x^{\mu} \partial_{\mu} \phi\).
  • A third participant points out potential confusion regarding the terminology of contravariant and covariant coordinates, emphasizing that coordinates are always upper-index and that infinitesimal changes in coordinates are upper-index vectors.
  • This participant also discusses the effect of unit scaling on coordinates and gradients, illustrating that coordinates transform differently than gradients under such changes.
  • A later reply clarifies that the original question pertains to the 4-gradient in special relativity, noting a change of sign in spatial coordinates and expressing confusion about how derivatives of contravariant components yield covariant vectors and vice versa.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology and the specific aspects of derivatives being discussed. There is no consensus on the precise nature of the question or the implications of the transformations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the need for clarity regarding the definitions of contravariant and covariant quantities, as well as the implications of coordinate transformations in different contexts, such as general relativity versus special relativity. There are unresolved aspects regarding the mathematical steps involved in the transformation processes.

nigelscott
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Can someone explain why the derivative with respect to a contravariant coordinate transforms as a
covariant 4-vector and the derivative with respect to a covariant coordinate transforms as a
contravariant 4-vector.
 
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Take a scalar field. Then its differential is
\mathrm{d} \phi=\mathrm{d} x^{\mu} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x^{\mu}}
is also a scalar. Thus, since \mathrm{d} x^{\mu} transforms contravariantly the four-gradient must transform covariantly, i.e., the correct notation is
\mathrm{d} \phi=\mathrm{d} x^{\mu} \partial_{\mu} \phi.
In the same way you can show that deriving with respect to the covariant components leads to a contravariant object.
 
The title says "Derivatives of contravariant and covariant vectors," which would be stuff like \nabla_a v_b versus \nabla_a v^b. But #1 seems to be talking about \nabla_a v_b versus \nabla^a v_b , and #2 seems to be talking about the gradient of a scalar, \nabla_a\phi versus \nabla^a\phi. Which are we really talking about here?

Not to be too pedantic, but we also don't have contravariant coordinates and covariant coordinates. Coordinates are always upper-index, and an ntuple of coordinates is not a vector or covector (at least not in GR). An infinitesimal *change* in the coordinates is an upper-index vector.

Assuming that the question is really the one posed in #1, then an easy way to see this is in terms of scaling. For example, suppose you change your units from meters to centimeters. All of your coordinates (which are upper-index quantities) get bigger by a factor of 100. Now suppose you have a scalar such as the electrical potential, and you take a gradient in order to find the electric field. The electric field is *smaller* in units of V/cm than it is in units of V/m. So the coordinates transform in one way under scaling, while a gradient transforms in the opposite way. This is what we expect for covariant quantities compared to contravariant ones.
 
Sorry, I thought the question is about special relativity.
 
Thanks for your responses. I think my question should really have asked about the 4-gradient in SR.

μ = ∂/xμ = [∂/∂t, ∇]

and

μ = ∂/xμ = [∂/∂t, -∇]

c = 1

So in these cases the indeces are just telling you that there is a change of sign in the spatial
coordinates. What I don't understand is how the process of taking the derivative of the contravariant components results in a covariant vector and vice versa.
 
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