Deriving Torricelli's equation using calculus

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving Torricelli's equation, ##v_f^{2} = v_i^{2} + 2a\Delta x##, using calculus. Participants explore different methods of integration and the justification for manipulating differentials in the derivation process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the justification for "cancelling" the ##dt## terms when integrating both sides of the equation, suggesting that variables of integration should be introduced.
  • Another participant argues that under certain conditions, differentials can be manipulated similarly to ratios, referencing the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of cancelling ##dt## in the context of integrating with respect to time, leading to confusion about the bounds of integration transitioning to terms of ##x## and ##v##.
  • A different approach is mentioned, where one participant states that if acceleration is constant, the relationship between velocity and displacement can be derived through specific substitutions and simplifications.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical expression involving integration limits, attempting to clarify how the bounds of integration relate to the variables involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the justification for manipulating differentials and the treatment of integration bounds. No consensus is reached regarding the validity of the approaches discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the assumption of constant acceleration in deriving the equation, while others question the treatment of differentials and integration limits without resolving these concerns.

Mr Davis 97
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I am trying to derive Torricelli's equation, i.e. ##v_f^{2} = v_i^{2} + 2a\Delta x##, using calculus.

There are two different ways I have seen. First we start with ##\displaystyle \frac {dv}{dt} = a##. Next, we multiply both sides by velocity, ##\displaystyle v\frac {dv}{dt} = a\frac {dx}{dt} ##. From here are where the two ways diverge. One author "cancels" out both ##dt## terms and proceeds to integrate with respect to the differential on each side (dv and dx). However, how is this justified? Doesn't one need to always introduce a variables of integration to the equation when they integrate both sides? I don't see how it's justified to just use the differentials that are already there. Another author does it a different way. He takes ##\displaystyle v\frac {dv}{dt} = a\frac {dx}{dt} ## and integrates both sides with respect to time. However, I think it gets fishy when he cancels out the ##dt## in the derivatives with the ##dt## that he introduces as a variable of integration, rendering the variables of integration for each side as ##v## and ##x##. Also, the bounds of integration are ##t_{1}## and ##t_{2}## for both integrals, so how do the bounds of integration somehow become in terms of ##x## and ##v## respectively? If someone could answer my questions for both cases, I would be happy.
 
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Mr Davis 97 said:
I am trying to derive Torricelli's equation, i.e. ##v_f^{2} = v_i^{2} + 2a\Delta x##, using calculus.

There are two different ways I have seen. First we start with ##\displaystyle \frac {dv}{dt} = a##. Next, we multiply both sides by velocity, ##\displaystyle v\frac {dv}{dt} = a\frac {dx}{dt} ##. From here are where the two ways diverge. One author "cancels" out both ##dt## terms and proceeds to integrate with respect to the differential on each side (dv and dx). However, how is this justified?

In the same manner that one goes from:

y = f(x)

y' = dy/dx = f'(x)

dy = f'(x) dx

∫ dy = ∫ f'(x) dx = f(x) + C

It's like a Fundamental Theorem of Calculus, or something.

Under certain conditions, differentials can be manipulated as if they were the ratio of two numbers.

Doesn't one need to always introduce a variables of integration to the equation when they integrate both sides?
I think you mean constants of integration, here.

I don't see how it's justified to just use the differentials that are already there.
It's not clear what you mean here.

Another author does it a different way. He takes ##\displaystyle v\frac {dv}{dt} = a\frac {dx}{dt} ## and integrates both sides with respect to time. However, I think it gets fishy when he cancels out the ##dt## in the derivatives with the ##dt## that he introduces as a variable of integration, rendering the variables of integration for each side as ##v## and ##x##.

It's not clear how this approach is any different from the first approach shown above.

Also, the bounds of integration are ##t_{1}## and ##t_{2}## for both integrals, so how do the bounds of integration somehow become in terms of ##x## and ##v## respectively? If someone could answer my questions for both cases, I would be happy.

It's still not clear what you are saying here.

Do you have some links to these two separate derivations?
 
Hey, This formula only work for constant acceleration, that why there's delta x, it's also useful for approximation, let's prove it
Suppose a is constant, then V = at and X = (At^2)/2
Vf^2 - Vi^2 = k*k*(Tf^2 - Ti^2)
but remember that Xf^2 - Xi^2 = a(Tf^2 - Ti^2)/2 ?
If so then DT = 2Dx/a, and Vf^2 - Vi^2 reduces to a*a*2Dx/a = 2aDx.
 
About to integral limits:
$$ \int_{t_1}^{t_2}v\frac{dv}{dt}dt = \int_{t_1}^{t_2}a\frac{dx}{dt}dt \Rightarrow \int_{v(t_1)}^{v(t_2)}v\,dv = \int_{x(t_1)}^{x(t_2)}a\,dx $$
 

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