Deviation of a gas from ideal gas behaviour

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around estimating the pressure at which argon gas begins to deviate from ideal gas behavior due to the finite size of the atoms. Participants explore the implications of this deviation, the validity of given numerical estimates, and the assumptions underlying the calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to apply a Taylor expansion of the hard sphere gas equation to estimate the pressure, questioning the next steps in the calculation.
  • Another participant challenges the provided estimate of 10^9 Pa, suggesting that it seems excessively high and warrants verification.
  • Further contributions emphasize the need for a specified magnitude of deviation to meaningfully address the question, proposing assumptions about acceptable levels of deviation (e.g., 0.1% to 1%).
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of reaching such a high pressure in practical calculations related to excluded volume.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the validity of the numerical estimate of 10^9 Pa, with some questioning its reasonableness and others emphasizing the lack of clarity on the magnitude of deviations required for the analysis.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to assumptions about deviation magnitudes and the specific conditions under which the ideal gas behavior is expected to break down.

RightFresh
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Hi all, I have a question from a tutorial sheet that I'm stuck with. The question is

Estimate the pressure at which a gas of argon atoms, at a temperature of 300 K, will begin to show deviations from the ideal gas behaviour due to the finite size of the atoms. Answer: Of order 10^9 Pa.

So I tried taylor expanding the hard sphere gas equation: P'(V-b)=NkT, to get P'=P(1+b/V) to first order, where P is the ideal gas pressure. However, I don't know if this is the right approach or just what to do next really. Could someone point me in the right direction please?
 
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RightFresh said:
begin to show deviations from the ideal gas behaviour
What magnitude of deviations?
RightFresh said:
Answer: Of order 10^9 Pa.
Please check this number --- it's somewhat beyond ridiculous.
 
It just says deviations & that's the answer given
 
Bystander said:
What magnitude of deviations?

Please check this number --- it's somewhat beyond ridiculous.
It just says deviations & that's the answer given
 
Without some specification of magnitude of departure, there's no way to answer the question. You could make an assumption of 0.1% (or 0.3 to perhaps 1 % for ordinary measurement accuracies), and at the fixed temperature calculate a pressure at which the excluded volume reached that value, but you're never going to see 109 Pa for such a calculation.
 

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