Distinguishing Einstein Cartan from GR: Experiments

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the potential experiments that could differentiate Einstein-Cartan gravity from General Relativity (GR). Participants explore theoretical implications, experimental challenges, and the role of spin and torsion in these gravitational theories.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that Einstein-Cartan gravity and GR are equivalent in vacuum but differ in the presence of matter due to torsion in the Einstein-Cartan metric.
  • Another participant notes the lack of observational evidence for torsion, emphasizing that current tests of GR against alternative theories rely on macroscopic objects rather than spin.
  • A participant mentions an attempt by researchers at the University of Washington to create a high angular momentum source to test spin-dependent gravity, although they express uncertainty about the sensitivity of the device.
  • One participant raises the idea that the alignment of spins in neutron stars could lead to modifications in the equilibrium state of the stars, suggesting a possible avenue for exploration.
  • A reference to Poplawski's work on Einstein-Cartan theory is provided, highlighting that while it has a high citation count, it may not yield experimentally testable predictions relevant to the current inquiry.
  • Another participant mentions their advisor's work on Einstein-Cartan cosmologies, indicating ongoing research in this area.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of distinguishing between Einstein-Cartan gravity and GR through experiments. There is no consensus on specific experimental methods or the implications of torsion and spin.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on macroscopic descriptions of matter and unresolved questions regarding the sensitivity of proposed experimental setups.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to researchers in theoretical physics, particularly those focused on gravitational theories, cosmology, and experimental physics related to gravity.

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Are there any experiments either already performed or even simply proposed that could be used to distinguish Einstein Cartan gravity from GR?

My current understanding is that they are the same in vacuum, and only differ in matter. In matter the Einstein Cartan metric can have torsion, unlike the GR metric, but in vacuum they agree. Because of the way spin is related to torsion in Einstein Cartan and how important spin is in QM, it seems like that might be a viable candidate for GR violations.
 
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I'm not aware of any observation of torsion yet. It's difficult, because all our tests of GR vs. alternative theories of gravitation rely on huge (astronomical) macroscopic objects. So spin doesn't play a role but only macroscopic descriptions of matter (aka hydrodynamics) and the electromagnetic field, which in the gauge approach to gravity a la Kibble lead to standard GR.
 
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The University of Washington gravity guys tried to build a high angular momentum source/target. It was a mix of two materials magnetized in opposite directions, but one had more spin than the other. This would allow them to test spin-dependent gravity. I don't know how far they got with this.

Even so, this device was many tens of orders of magnitude less sensitive than they would need to distinguish GR from Einstein-Cartan.
 
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vanhees71 said:
I'm not aware of any observation of torsion yet. It's difficult, because all our tests of GR vs. alternative theories of gravitation rely on huge (astronomical) macroscopic objects. So spin doesn't play a role but only macroscopic descriptions of matter (aka hydrodynamics) and the electromagnetic field, which in the gauge approach to gravity a la Kibble lead to standard GR.

In neutron stars the spins align resulting in a total big spin. That should result in some modification in the state/equilibrium equation of the star, I think.
 
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Poplawski writes a lot about Einstein-Cartan theory. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370269310011561 has a high citation count, it may or not be helpful. Unfortunately, I think Poplawski focuses on the aspect of the theory that predicts that BH collapse "bounces" in Einstein-Cartan theory, which may not be the sort of experimentally testable prediction you're looking for.
 
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