Do the Large Hadron Collider take earth's rotational speed?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the relationship between the speed of particles in the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and Earth's rotational speed. Protons in the LHC achieve a Lorentz factor of approximately 7,500, moving at 0.999999991 times the speed of light (c). The conversation emphasizes that all motion is relative, and the Earth's movement does not significantly affect particle velocity calculations due to relativistic velocity addition principles. The LHC serves as the reference frame for measuring particle speeds, making Earth's rotation negligible in this context.

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  • Understanding of Lorentz transformations in special relativity
  • Familiarity with relativistic velocity addition
  • Basic knowledge of reference frames in physics
  • Concept of the speed of light as a constant in all inertial frames
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  • #31
howabout1337 said:
How do we know that something "stationary" is not actually moving on a bigger scale?

We don't.
It is meaningless to to talk about something "actually moving" or "actually at rest" - anything we say about motion is always relative to something else.

In everyday life and speech we tend to be a bit careless and say things like "The car is moving at 100 kilometers per hour", but if you think about it for a moment you'll see that this means "The car is moving at 100 kilometers per hour relative to the surface of the earth". Dig deep enough into any statement about speeds, and you'll find that there's never something that you can call the "real speed" or "actual speed".
 
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  • #32
OK, I think I am getting there.

Say two cars are traveling, one faster than the other. We'll call it car A and car B. Car A is faster than car B, not that much, but faster. When the person in car B looks at car A, he's going to say "Oh, he's traveling at his speed minus my speed". Me, the person who is "stationary", measures their speed to my speed, and say "hey they are traveling at their speed minus my speed". Obviously the person in car B looks at the person in car A's speed differently than I do. The person in car B calls me and say "hey that guy in car A is traveling at this speed", and I argue with him saying "he's not that speed, he's THIS speed". Obviously I didn't measure the speed between myself and the guy in car B.

Now, someone behind me shines a laser pointer right in between all of us.

Now, the guy is car A cannot see the guy in car B, or me, or the guy behind me, and he performs experiment on speed of light from the laser pointer, and he's going to say "hey this is speed of light". The guy in car B is going to say, "look at that dumb guy in car A, he doesn't know he's moving, let me measure the REAL speed of light", and he measures the speed of light relative to himself, "he will say, look this is the REAL speed of light". On the other hand, I am thinking to myself, "both of these guys don't know what they are talking about, They both think they are stationary. The B guy think he's stationary and making fun of that guy in car A"

How do I know that the guy behind me is not saying "haha, so all of these guys don't know that they are on a moving train?"
 
  • #33
howabout1337 said:
OK, I think I am getting there.

Say two cars are traveling, one faster than the other.
Relative to some point on, say, the ground?

We'll call it car A and car B. Car A is faster than car B, not that much, but faster. When the person in car B looks at car A, he's going to say "Oh, he's traveling at his speed minus my speed".
Relative to car A, yes.

Me, the person who is "stationary", measures their speed to my speed, and say "hey they are traveling at their speed minus my speed".
Having said you were "stationary", what do you mean by "my speed"?

Obviously the person in car B looks at the person in car A's speed differently than I do. The person in car B calls me and say "hey that guy in car A is traveling at this speed", and I argue with him saying "he's not that speed, he's THIS speed". Obviously I didn't measure the speed between myself and the guy in car B.
I don't know what you mean by "this speed" or "that speed". Let's put specific numbers to this:
You, who are "stationary", standing on the side of the road have speed 0 relative to the road. Car B has speed 80 kph relative to the road and car A has speed 100 kph relative to the road.

Now:

Relative to you, you have speed 0, car A has speed 100 kph and car B has speed 80 kph.
(Exactly the same as "relative to the road", of course.)

Relative to the person in car A, you (and the road) have speed -100 kph, car A has speed 0, and car B has speed -20 kph.

Relative to the person in car B, you (and the road) have speed -80 kph, car A has speed 20 kph and car B has speed 0.

Now, someone behind me shines a laser pointer right in between all of us.

Now, the guy is car A cannot see the guy in car B, or me, or the guy behind me, and he performs experiment on speed of light from the laser pointer, and he's going to say "hey this is speed of light". The guy in car B is going to say, "look at that dumb guy in car A, he doesn't know he's moving, let me measure the REAL speed of light", and he measures the speed of light relative to himself, "he will say, look this is the REAL speed of light". On the other hand, I am thinking to myself, "both of these guys don't know what they are talking about, They both think they are stationary. The B guy think he's stationary and making fun of that guy in car A"

How do I know that the guy behind me is not saying "haha, so all of these guys don't know that they are on a moving train?"
I don't know why any of those guys would think anyone was dumb. They should understand that the speed of light would be measured to be the same at any speed.

Look at it this way: according to classical, Newtonian, Physics, we can add speeds: u+ v.

If I am standing at the side of the road, you approach me on the back of a truck going 60 kph (relative to me) and I throw a ball to you at 70 kph (relative to me) classical physics would say the ball will be going toward you at 60+ 70= 130 kpg relative to you.

Similarly, if I shine a light at you with speed "c", relative to me, classical physics says you would see it coming toward you with speed 60+ c.

Now, relativity says you must use the formula (u+ v)(1+ uv/c^2).
In the first example, that would be (60+ 70)/(1+ (60)(70)/c^2)= 130/(1+ 4200/300000^2)= 129.999999 kph. The difference is, of course, so small it isn't noticed.

In the second example we would have (60+ c)/(1+ 60c/c^2)= (60+ c)/(1+ 60/c).
Multiplying both numerator and denonator by c we gave c(60+ c)/[c(1+ 60/c)]= c(60+ c)/(60+ c)= c. That is, the speed of light is the same relative to both of us.
 
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  • #34
howabout1337 said:
Say two cars are traveling, one faster than the other. We'll call it car A and car B. Car A is faster than car B, not that much, but faster. When the person in car B looks at car A, he's going to say "Oh, he's traveling at his speed minus my speed which is zero".
Almost... I've added a few very important words above. The key here is that as far as person B is concerned, he is the stationary one and I and the ground that I am standing on are moving backwards at some speed.


Now, someone behind me shines a laser pointer right in between all of us.

Now, the guy is car A cannot see the guy in car B, or me, or the guy behind me, and he performs experiment on speed of light from the laser pointer, and he's going to say "hey this is speed of light". The guy in car B is going to say, "look at that dumb guy in car A, he doesn't know he's moving, let me measure the REAL speed of light", and he measures the speed of light relative to himself, "he will say, look this is the REAL speed of light". On the other hand, I am thinking to myself, "both of these guys don't know what they are talking about, They both think they are stationary. The B guy think he's stationary and making fun of that guy in car A"
And the joke is on all of them, because they ALL measure the exact same value for the speed of light.

How do I know that the guy behind me is not saying "haha, so all of these guys don't know that they are on a moving train?"
Exactly... You don't. In fact, there's somebody on a spaceship flying by somewhere saying "haha, so all those guys don't know that they're on a moving planet". The Earth is a lot bigger than a train, but it's the exact same problem otherwise.
 
  • #35
Now, relativity says you must use the formula (u+ v)/(1+ uv/c^2).

What is this formula called? How can I derive it?

Also, I can't wrap my head around each person's position relative to the tip of the light. What is causing them to slow down as they reach the speed of light? Is there some kind of drag like a feather dropped in the air (there is a maximum velocity on it)? Who is the one slowing down relative to each other?

By that fact, can our total change in position be greater than c? As in, can our total change in position be greater than maximum speed c? For example, can my change in position be 4 seconds*c in 2 seconds? No wormhole or shortcuts, just compounding speed (even in relativistic term).
 
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  • #36
howabout1337 said:
What is this formula called? How can I derive it?

It's called "Relativistic velocity addition", and a search for that phrase will find some derivations online.
 
  • #37
howabout1337 said:
What is this formula called? How can I derive it?
Wikipedia calls it the velocity-addition formula, but a better name would be "velocity composition formula", as it's not really "addition".
 
  • #38
May I ask, if two bodies travel at the speed of light, in opposite directions and we calculate the increase of distance between them over time, would they be moving apart at twice the speed of light or is this mistaken?
 
  • #39
Bodies cannot travel at the speed of light.
If they travel close to the speed of light relative to us and we calculate the increase in distance for our reference frame, we get nearly twice the speed of light, indeed. This is not a relative velocity between two objects, however. If those objects calculate their increase in distance, they get a value below the speed of light.
 

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