The Derivative Nature of Time and Its Relation to Earth's Rotation and Speed

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of time, particularly whether it can be defined independently of physical systems like clocks, and its relationship to Earth's rotation. Participants explore theoretical and conceptual aspects of time, including its status as a fourth dimension and the implications of time dilation in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether time can exist independently of physical systems, arguing that time is fundamentally what clocks measure.
  • Others propose that time is a derivative of changes in physical systems, specifically relating to Earth's rotation and the functioning of clocks.
  • A participant suggests that the definition of time as a fourth dimension is valid despite difficulties in its conceptualization.
  • There is a discussion about the differences between "proper time" and "coordinate time," with some participants emphasizing the need to clarify which notion is being referenced.
  • Some argue that clocks do not affect the rotation of the Earth, and that the precision of modern clocks allows for variations in perceived time due to relativistic effects.
  • Participants express differing views on the implications of time dilation, with some asserting that time itself does not slow down, while others contend that the measurement of time can vary based on the observer's frame of reference.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on whether time can be defined independently of physical systems. There are multiple competing views regarding the nature of time, its measurement, and its relationship to physical phenomena.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in defining time based on Earth's rotation due to variations in clock behavior at different altitudes and the complexities of measuring time in curved spacetime. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties and challenges in the conceptualization of time.

  • #31
sumfor said:
Your day is determined by Earth's rotation to which you can assign a time.
You continue to miss the point. Does space not exist in your walls or outside your room? Of course it does - so in your definition you just assigned arbitrary boundaries (the walls), so I did too (the start and end of the day). Essentially, you defined space as "the gap between two arbitrarily chosen surfaces", so I defined time as the gap between two arbitrarily chosen events. If my definition of time is vacuous, as you contend, then so is your definition of space.

Which is kind of the point of operational definitions. We note that clocks are useful and rulers are useful, and that their behaviour implies the Lorentz transforms, which in turn implies that the clocks and rulers are measuring displacements in a 4d manifold with a Lorentzian signature. That's why we say time is the fourth dimension.
sumfor said:
And, no, time is not filled with air or anything else.
Really? What are you planning on breathing today if there's no air between morning and night?
 
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  • #32
"Time does not exist"

Gonna tell my boss that next time I get late to class, I am a physics teacher so who is he to argue with me!?
 
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  • #33
malawi_glenn said:
I am a physics teacher so who is he to argue with me!?
I hope he is not a philosopher …
 
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  • #34
Orodruin said:
I hope he is not a philosopher …
Nah he is a Chemist so he knows his place in scientific discussion with me!
Popular joke amongst us is that I ask how his stamp collection is coming along
 
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  • #35
I guess it's time to move on.
My answer suggested in #16 is probably too abstract.
 
  • #36
robphy said:
My answer suggested in #16 is probably too abstract.
Uh ... you think? :smile:
 
  • #37
sumfor said:
Space is the area between the walls of my room and between the objects contained within it. It's filled with air and has a particular volume.
What if you removed all air in your room?

How do you measure the, say, distance between your walls? Just by looking at them? Then it revolves around some physical dynamical process (traveling of light and neuroprocesses in your brain). Measuring with a ruler? You have to go and get a ruler and fiddle with it and then you have to look at the ruler...
One can not separate space from time that easily. I am looking at a chair in front of me "now" and see a door further back. But the light from the door has to travel a longer distance to my eyes than the light from the chair and therefore I see the door from an "earlier" time than what I see the chair.
 
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  • #38
malawi_glenn said:
How do you measure the, say, distance between your walls? Just by looking at them?

Then you see only light, not the walls.

 
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  • #39
As the OP has clearly demonstrated that they are only here to push their own personal viewpoint and not learn the standard approach this thread is closed. We can discuss the OP’s views when they are published in the professional scientific literature.
 
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