Do you believe in god? and why

  • Thread starter DR OF DEATH
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  • #1
ok simple topic my view is that why should i believe in a god just becuase religion says he exists. I am the type of person that likes to have proof of something before i believe in it. so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.
 

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  • #2
heusdens
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Originally posted by drdeath
ok simple topic my view is that why should i believe in a god just becuase religion says he exists. I am the type of person that likes to have proof of something before i believe in it. so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.

What kind of "proof" you think would make you belief?

If they say, for instance "god created the universe", and then they state: "see, the universe exist, it was god's work" would you accept that as proof?

The point is of course, if you start believing based on that argument, then you are an easy believer.

It does not proof anything. Because the proof would then also have to imply that, if God did not exist, or had not existed, no universe would have been there.

It is however impossible for the universe, for the material world to fail existence. Because it exists now, it just means that it had existed in the undefinite past, and will continue to exist in the undefinate future. Without any help of God.

If the existence of the universe thefore can be hold to be not dependend on the existence of God, then no proof for God can be given.

To assume God does exist, and created the universe, contains the assumption of a negative, namely the assumption that without God's creation, the universe would NOT exist, which is a sharp and profound contradiction. To assume God (as creator of the universe) implies one has to assume that without God, the universe would NOT be existent...
 
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  • #3
Originally posted by drdeath
ok simple topic my view is that why should i believe in a god just becuase religion says he exists. I am the type of person that likes to have proof of something before i believe in it. so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.
I can prove nothing, either one way or the other, sorry...
 
  • #4
drdeath - I see you're a new poster here. I don't think you'll need to ask for proof here.

There is:

1. No proof to a false claim. Thus no proof to the existent of a mythological character.

2. All proof to a true claim. Thus all proof shows mythology remains mythology.

A mythology is a system. It exists only in the exact wording of the mythology. Nothing not mentioned in it exists in that mythological system. It's simply an error over superimposition.

In reality no such mythological God exists. But in various mythologies, such a creature exists. It's as simple as that.

I hardly think the burden of proof lies on someone proving MEDUSA doesn't exist. Rather, it is obvious that MEDUSA remains merely a mythological character. There also is no burden of proof to prove she does exist, because so quickly we can see she does not, it takes no time!
 
  • #5
Mentat
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Welcome to the PFs, drdeath! :smile:

Your topic is a good one, but it shouldn't have been posted in the Philosophy Forum. There is a sub-section of this Forum (called the Religion Forum), which is where the Mentors would prefer threads about God to be posted.
 
  • #6
drag
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Originally posted by BoulderHead
I can prove nothing, either one way or the other, sorry...
Indeed. :wink:

"We appologize for the inconvinience."
Douglas Adams
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by drdeath
ok simple topic my view is that why should i believe in a god just becuase religion says he exists. I am the type of person that likes to have proof of something before i believe in it. so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.

Nothing can be proven beyond all doubt.
One can never prove a negative.

->No belief (system) is or ultimately ever can be justified by logic.

-->To believe or not to believe; each requires a leap of faith

--->If any belief [including believing in nothing] is a matter of
faith, then I can never make a logical choice about beliefs.

-----> therefore I am free to choose my beliefs

------->I am compelled by experience to choose belief in God over
belief in nothing.
 
  • #8


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Nothing can be proven beyond all doubt.
One can never prove a negative.

->No belief (system) is or ultimately ever can be justified by logic.

-->To believe or not to believe; each requires a leap of faith

--->If any belief [including believing in nothing] is a matter of
faith, then I can never make a logical choice about beliefs.

-----> therefore I am free to choose my beliefs

------->I am compelled by experience to choose belief in God over
belief in nothing.

1. Errors
2. There indeed an infinite amount of "beliefs" meaning claims, that can be justified by logic.
3. The leap of faith exists. However, it only makes you look bad when you take a HUGE leap towards a disproven claim, when their is a proven claim which takes so little leap it's barely a visible crack.
4. If we define a "belief" as simple some state of accepting a claim, there are claims which take no leap of faith. ZERO, not A LITTLE, but zero. Realize this.
5. You're free to choose beliefs, yes. But when ones poor choices affect other people aside from oneself, others will indeed ridicule you for negatively affecting others. Thus by choosing poor beliefs, you are anti-humanitarian.
6. To say you are compelled by experience to choose God is simply poor poor brain usage. Experience could only bring about atheism. It's your emotional fixation that brings you to such a conclusion.
7. Nothing in reality will ever bring someone towards an unrealistic, irrational claim acceptance.
8. Accept it. Or again choose to belief against fact.
9. Ivan, to increase the quality of these boards, I am going to put you on my ignore list. Just want you to know that I won't see anything directed at me, unless for a reason I choose to unblock certain posts. Highly unlikely.
 
  • #9
Entropia
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I don't think one can prove the existence of God. I don't think one can disprove it either.
 
  • #10
drag
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Originally posted by Entropia
I don't think one can prove the existence of God.
I don't think one can disprove it either.
Indeed, but even that claim is not absolute, is it ? :wink:
btw, nor can one disprove pink ellephants
or the undeniable fact that a billion dollars
are going to matirialize in front of me momentarily.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #11
All claims in reality can be properly addressed in reality. It's a fundamental, but no, perhaps not widely accepted.

I do not know as I do not hear of this often.

I assert it as such however. But remember what I said about the infinite chance occureance.

Let us say for a minute that all the gods we know of on Earth were all proven to be false.

Now, remove your god bias (even me) for a minute, or just ten seconds.

What is the given liklihood that the universe bares the existence of a randomly chosen claim?

In other words, think of all the possible claims of existence one could propose out of the blue. Nearly all of them are false.

Thus, with the god bias removed, we see how insanely impossible (almost) it is. Right?

I mean to say, while the claim can absolutely be addressed. Regardless of what existence claim we're talking about, my Infinite Chance Occurance concept really limits it down doesn't it?
 
  • #12
drag
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
In other words, think of all the possible claims
of existence one could propose out of the blue.
Nearly all of them are false.
Completly ridiculous !
According to what "judge" ? What reasoning
system ? Why THAT system ? What system justifies
GR and QM and not anything else ?

Doubt or shout !

Peace and long life.
 
  • #13
Ridiculous? It's merely logic and stats. I hope you weren't serious. I'm too old to explain a claim so easy to understand. If no joke, please research.
 
  • #14
drag
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Science - observation dictates what we should
assume (like GR and QM). Without it, as you implied,
how can you decide anything ?! :wink:
btw, observation does not lead to absolute
assumptions(probably, though possibly not,
probably and so on... ).
 
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  • #15
drag
Science Advisor
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Hmm... Perhaps I misunderstood what you
were trying to say, if so - I appologize.
If you simply meant - propose explanations to
the Universe WITH observed data in mind, then
my personal opinion is that "explanation" -
god or anything else for that matter, does not
apply. ALL we have is observation, the rest
as they say is "dust in the wind".

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #16
drag - how come your posts are always shoved over to the left side of the box? Are you hitting return constantly and on a lower resolution?

They look like poetry in a poetry book. It's annoying! And they become a lot longer and harder to read because so many line breaks!
 
  • #17
drag
Science Advisor
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
They look like poetry in a poetry book. It's annoying!
And they become a lot longer and harder to read because
so many line breaks!
Because otherwise they break in the middle and you
have single words in between the lines.
Sorry ! I just thought this is more comfortable than
the above.
 
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  • #18
Single words in between lines? What? Maybe your computer has a view problem or something...
 
  • #19
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by drdeath
ok simple topic my view is that why should i believe in a god just becuase religion says he exists. I am the type of person that likes to have proof of something before i believe in it. so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.
How can you prove that Atheism exists? Does not Atheism, like Theism, result from the "constructs" of one's mind? If you can prove Atheism exists then I too will start believing!
 
  • #20
heusdens
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
How can you prove that Atheism exists? Does not Atheism, like Theism, result from the "constructs" of one's mind? If you can prove Atheism exists then I too will start believing!

You are quite confusing here. Why do you want a proof of the existence of Atheism? Isn't it the case that 'Atheism' lends it's existence on the fact that people consider themselves atheists?
Same as for Theism?
Second, one can not believe Atheism, or even Theism. Atheism like Theism can be considered to have existence, independend of our beliefs. Philisophy also exists, wether I am familiar with it, or know about it or not. Also, no 'belief' in Philosophy is necessary, for philosophy to exist. Philosophy exists due to the fact that this discipline of thought is practised.

You are probably confusing these things with the thesis and things which are stated within Atheism (the conviction, that a God does not exist), which is of course something entirely different.
 
  • #21
Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is simply a collection of observed facts about nature.

Theism, on the other hand, is a collection of not facts but of contradicting to facts opinions.
 
  • #22
wuliheron
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
How can you prove that Atheism exists? Does not Atheism, like Theism, result from the "constructs" of one's mind? If you can prove Atheism exists then I too will start believing!

Yes, we are all aspects of your imagination and getting tired of this pretense. We can not prove we are atheists, little green men from mars, or anything other than the products of your imagination.

It is up to you to disprove we exist.
 
  • #23
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by heusdens
You are quite confusing here. Why do you want a proof of the existence of Atheism? Isn't it the case that 'Atheism' lends it's existence on the fact that people consider themselves atheists?
Same as for Theism?
Second, one can not believe Atheism, or even Theism. Atheism like Theism can be considered to have existence, independend of our beliefs. Philisophy also exists, wether I am familiar with it, or know about it or not. Also, no 'belief' in Philosophy is necessary, for philosophy to exist. Philosophy exists due to the fact that this discipline of thought is practised.
Doesn't Atheism base everything upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? It's like I said ...


You are probably confusing these things with the thesis and things which are stated within Atheism (the conviction, that a God does not exist), which is of course something entirely different.
And where's the difference?
 
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  • #24
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by Alexander
Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is simply a collection of observed facts about nature.

Theism, on the other hand, is a collection of not facts but of contradicting to facts opinions.
But then why does Atheism base itself upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? Just because something may not be provable (at this time) doesn't it mean it "doesn't exist." In which case you have to rely strictly upon "faith" in order to make such a claim.
 
  • #25
Iacchus32
2,313
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Originally posted by wuliheron
Yes, we are all aspects of your imagination and getting tired of this pretense. We can not prove we are atheists, little green men from mars, or anything other than the products of your imagination.

It is up to you to disprove we exist.
And yet all I have to do is shut the computer off! ... Come on, you can do better than that!
 
  • #26
Believing in a God and believing in medusa are totally different matters.

God is an logical extension, hypothesis, of what exist in reality. Just like hypothesizing that the there were other lands to be discovered; thus the discovery of America and other continents. The question is whether we humans, as a function of time, have more to discover. Of course, God is an ultimate hypothesis of reality rather than a discreet hypothesis. It is kind of like hypothesizing the existence of aliens; from the existence of other planets. Except that the existence of God can only be "proved" through an afterlife; all others can be "proved" in this life. Nothing can be proved in this life, only established by our free will.

Being logical can have several connotations. You can be absolutely logical; if you consider yourself a mathmatician and only a mathmatician you can base matters on whether they can be absolutely proved through mathmatical reasoning; of course this would be only an "inherent" proof (it is intrinsically reasonable; intrinsically it seems to provide an absolute proof). Of course the mathmatician would be wrong because he is ultimately human being and not a mathmatician. However, even a "mathmatically minded human being" will have to consider the fact that we are beings of facultative logic. It is more "irrational" to persist in trying to prove that God exist. Irrational meaning a non-rational, endless, stubborn and personal pursuit. We can only make a rational hypothesis on this matter of whether God exist or not. Of course it would be better to consider several facets of reality before one decides. Atheism is purely a personal...belief. A methodological, facultative philosophy. And thus it is an emotionally based philosophy. All beliefs are personal; thus the reason for us discussing it here, we believe as a means to an end. I apologize if my english was difficult to understand.
 
  • #27
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
1. Errors
Please name them

2. There indeed an infinite amount of "beliefs" meaning claims, that can be justified by logic.
Name one belief system justified by logic.


3. The leap of faith exists. However, it only makes you look bad when you take a HUGE leap towards a disproven claim, when their is a proven claim which takes so little leap it's barely a visible crack.
Name a proven claim; let's see, the choices are God exist and God does not exist. Which one is proven?
 
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  • #28
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
1. 4. If we define a "belief" as simple some state of accepting a claim, there are claims which take no leap of faith. ZERO, not A LITTLE, but zero. Realize this.
Name them.

5. You're free to choose beliefs, yes. But when ones poor choices affect other people aside from oneself, others will indeed ridicule you for negatively affecting others. Thus by choosing poor beliefs, you are anti-humanitarian.

What a load! what are your talking about? What do you think you are doing? You seek to disprove thing taken only on faith. The motivation for this is your own need to believe in nothing.

6.To say you are compelled by experience to choose God is simply poor poor brain usage. Experience could only bring about atheism. It's your emotional fixation that brings you to such a conclusion.

So what is the experience to which I refer? Speaking without information again I see. Tell me all about my life please?


7. Nothing in reality will ever bring someone towards an unrealistic, irrational claim acceptance.
Is this just another religious statement or can you prove this?

Accept it. Or again choose to belief against fact.
9. Ivan, to increase the quality of these boards, I am going to put you on my ignore list. Just want you to know that I won't see anything directed at me, unless for a reason I choose to unblock certain posts. Highly unlikely.
Run like a scared little kitty cat. run! run!

Edit: My final comment to LA it seems. Trivial philosophical arguments do not supercede human experience. Why don't you write that one down.
 
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  • #29
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by drag
Indeed, but even that claim is not absolute, is it ? :wink:
btw, nor can one disprove pink ellephants
or the undeniable fact that a billion dollars
are going to matirialize in front of me momentarily.

Live long and prosper.
Drag, thanks for responding in a reasonable manner...unlike some of our friends.

I don't mean to inspire belief in invisible scary skeletons [the real culprits behind QM phenomenon you know]. Also, I am not aware of many claims of pink elephants as compared to 4000 years of religion. Since science can never even address the non-existence of a god [God], the choice for belief or a lack of belief is rooted only in faith. I am amazed that considering God is not a subject of science, so many try to use science to disprove God's existence. On the other hand however, I have human testimony. This may not be scientific evidence, but it is human evidence. So the only real evidence on the matter is for, and not against God's existence.

What should we take on faith? The big bang? Evolution? Electrons? Mathematics? Science promises no absolute truth. Science is an evolving philosophy. We may find tomorrow that there was no big bang. Belief in the scientific process I think is justified, but this is a matter of faith. I surely don't believe that science has all of the answers; in fact I know it doesn't. As for math: I say Gödel!
 
  • #30
Originally posted by Iacchus32
But then why does Atheism base itself upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? Just because something may not be provable (at this time) doesn't it mean it "doesn't exist." In which case you have to rely strictly upon "faith" in order to make such a claim.

How come not provable? The facts of inexistence of gods (Zeuses, or biblical Gods) are abundant. All specific gods were proven not to exist.

Can you specify, exactly which God you are talking about? It likely then is some other object than Bible and religion are talking about.
 
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  • #31
heusdens
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
But then why does Atheism base itself upon the "so-called" fact that God doesn't exist? Just because something may not be provable (at this time) doesn't it mean it "doesn't exist." In which case you have to rely strictly upon "faith" in order to make such a claim.

This is a too narrow and theoretical issue.
Firstly, what makes you think, what in the world urges you or necessitates you to even think or postulate something like a God should exist, and to declare it's existence, without a proper well-defined theorem, the debate becomes totally abstract and meaningless.

Physcis talks about things sometimes, that don't exist, but they talk about it for a reason. For instance the top quark was first postulated from theory, and only found later by obeservation.

Now what is the theory that says God must exist then?

To name one candidate, ("God created the universe; the universe existt => God must exist") this can be disargued from the point of view that the universe does not need creation.
Argument: suppose we would say, the universe itself was not existent in all time. Then comes the need for a "creation" of the universe, and hence a "creator" is needed. But all we did, was just shift the problem of the existence of the universe, to the existence of God. Who created God? Well, this is then solved, by declaring God existed all the time, in all eternity.
But why did we have to invent God, instead of declaring that the unvierse itself could exist in all eternity. Hence, the existence of God is not needed to explain the existence of the universe. We just need to declare, the universe existed in all eternity.
 
  • #32
heusdens - It's like my Zero Chance Of Occurence claim.

The chance that any given random item, in and of itself, exists in the universe is so low it could be considered zero.

Once a human being, such as myself, see the proof of the claim that all current mythologies on Earth that include God we're created merely as mythologies, we realize that "God" is just another random item, and that the chance occurence of a random item, in and of itself (meaning disregarding any proof of the item etc..) iz basically zero.

Since we of course would have nothing logical or rational to lead to the claim that a God exists...

It's probablity is basically zero.

The idea to even use science to try to touch the claim is obsurd, because above science we're able to dismiss it to basically zero with logic (and a bit of math) alone.

Those emotionally attached to religion (mythopaths as I call them) can't see this.
 
  • #33
Les Sleeth
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Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Once a human being, such as myself, see the proof of the claim that all current mythologies on Earth that include God we're created merely as mythologies . . .

Let's see your proof. If you haven't got it, none of your inferences follow.

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Since we of course would have nothing logical or rational to lead to the claim that a God exists...

Let's hear you demonstrate your knowledge of the subject you are ready to "dismiss." Cite what you have studied, show us how extensively you have delved into the reports of God. Do you really understand why some people believe it, or are you speaking from ignorance?

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Those emotionally attached to religion (mythopaths as I call them) can't see this.

I call ignorant, condescending philosophers "mypath-and-no-one-elses."
 
  • #34
1. The evidence to the claim that mythologies are only mythologies is too common knowledge for me to cite. The average human already knows it, without doing research. Because of this, I feel no need to tell it to you. If you have not taken this knowledge and applied it, then do it. If you can't, then perhaps you're unaware of origins of religion. Nevertheless, it's to obvious statements to take the time to type.

2. Regarding my knowledge of the subject. Uhm, again this is common knowledge, I have yet to meet a human who did not have the knowldge in their memory that I do regarding this. Perhaps they hadn't put it together to support this claim, but it was still there. I really don't think asking someone to post information as common as "the sky is blue" is appropriate. If you don't have this, then I would say that you're not knowledable to speak on the subject at my level

3. From your final little rebuttle, it appears you do fall into the mythopath catagory. I'd urge you to disallow yourself to be tied up into a claim emotionally. If you learn to like only the truth, you'll never be disappointed. It would better not only yourself, but humanity as well.
 
  • #35
Fliption
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Originally posted by drdeath
so if you can prove god exists please do so here and i will start believing.

If I could prove it then you wouldn't need to believe it.
 

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