Does 0.999~ Equal 1?

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The discussion centers on the mathematical assertion that 0.999... is equal to 1, supported by the concept of limits and decimal representations of real numbers. Participants argue that 0.999... represents an infinite series that converges to 1, challenging misconceptions about limits and finite truncations. The conversation highlights the acceptance of other repeating decimals, like 1/3 equating to 0.333..., while questioning why 0.999... is often viewed differently. The conclusion emphasizes that within the framework of real numbers, 0.999... and 1 are indeed the same value, as they are simply different representations of the same number. Understanding this requires a grasp of mathematical definitions and properties rather than relying on intuitive but incorrect notions.
  • #51
I apologize if this has come up before, i didn't see it, or it may have been in a different form, but here's the extent of my understanding of it:
let's say 0.99999999999999... = x
so then 10x = 9.999999999...
therefore 10x - x = 9.000...
so 9x=9
-> x = 1
Makes sense to me.
 
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  • #52
matt grime said:
None of what you've written had indicated that 0.9... is not 1 in the hyperreals, and you've not rejected any of the arguments put forward that show that they are the same, you've only said that they are not necessarily the same for merely the same reason, and there is no arguning about that, and i agree entirely. convergence in *R is not the same as saying things about epsilon; you've not gotten round the argument that not only do 0.9... and 1 differ by a infinitesimal (which we both agree on) but that the difference is also *real* and hence since the only real infinitesimal is 0 then they are the same thing. Now, since the whole point of infinitesimals in the hyperreals is to provide another way of doing the analysis that agrees on R then how can you remotely believe the phrase 0.999... is 1 to be false in *R and true in R?

First I'd like to apologize for being so dense. I always assumed that when you said that the difference is real, you meant real, exists instead of Real, the numbering system. The statement would have to be true since both numbers are in R since and R is subset... Yes. Thank you for your patience. But another contention remains.

That of *0.9... equaling 1. But then, since the hyperreals is not complete, a cut in *R would not allow one one to create a decimal concept would it? 9/10^n + 9/10^(n + 1) + 9 /10^(n + 2) + ... where all the numbers are not necessarily reals but finite hyperreals, the series would not converge since there would be infinitesimals in the way [of precision]. Thus the question precludes itself. Why, if r finite, one could never be certain that each of the number chosen would be st(r) since in *R a approimately equal to b is possible without a = b as in R and there exists many r's for which r = st(r) [true].
 
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  • #53
Just because some object (*R) is such that it doesn't have property P (all cuts being well defined) then that just means that the property P fails at *some* point, not at all points.

And in anycase you must apply the relevant notions in each space, that is to say if dedekind cuts aren't the correct notion to think about then you must ignore them and think about the correct notions of completion and convergence, whatever they may be in *R.
 
  • #54
Hurkyl, I am still not sure I agree with your use of the transfer principle. If for no other reason that in Keisler's book, he states that a completeness statement is not a real statement and thus not transferable over to *R. This creates a clash of confusion for me and I am more willing to agree with the text. Of course as you may have noticed, I do not like to blindly accept things so will give my reasons as well. :D

First I will note that I pointed out in several posts previous that "An internal statement in *R is not necessarily true in *all* subsets of *R, especially depending on your language strength. Also, *N is an internal subset of *R but not N." To further that, to make it such that true in all R becomes possible then in *R, true becomes only applicable to internal subsets. Which is a major hitch.

Also I argue that what you gave can be considered to be more a statement of the properties of R than a real statement of R thus not valid by the transfer principle which itself varies dependant on the form of the treatment [axiomatic, formal languages etc.], so I remain hesitant to accept your *N argument.
 
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  • #55
matt grime said:
Just because some object (*R) is such that it doesn't have property P (all cuts being well defined) then that just means that the property P fails at *some* point, not at all points.

And in anycase you must apply the relevant notions in each space, that is to say if dedekind cuts aren't the correct notion to think about then you must ignore them and think about the correct notions of completion and convergence, whatever they may be in *R.

Okay. I will keep this in mind as I learn more NA. Thank you very much for your help and time, I truly do appreciate it.
 
  • #56
Hurkyl, on further thought, I will accept that the sequence converges in *N not because the transfer principle allows that *R is complete but because a N statement True in N <--> True in *N. Otherwise as Matt clarified for me NA would not be so useful. But then again, the converse is not true. That is an *N statement True in *N does not imply true in N. (Which I still feel is correct though you still say I am wrong, maybe I continue to be unclear?) Truth of that is based on language and the allowance of quantifications across all R is not always good. Furthermore, true in *N does not mean true in all *R. For example one can have true in *N but not in N both subsets of *R if the language allows extension through P(R).

So I remain skeptical of convergance across all *R. But I must learn more before I come to further conclusions.
 
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  • #57
First, on the transfer principle

------------------------------------------------------
The whole point of the transfer principle is that a statement P is true in the standard model if and only if *P is true in the nonstandard model.

You can actually prove the "if and only if" if you merely assume the truth of Q implies the truth of *Q as follows:

Suppose *Q is true.
Assume Q is false, then:
~Q is true.
*(~Q) is true.
~(*Q) is true.
*Q is false.
This a contradiction, therefore Q is true.
And similarly for the case where *Q is false.


TMK, for the purposes of NSA, real analysis is cast into the following language:

The language of bounded first-order logic, with:
(1) Constant symbols for every real number and every set that could ever possibly arise in a real-analysis argument.
(2) The internal power set operator P.
(3) The internal membership relation \epsilon.

"Bounded" means that quantifiers are bound. You can say things like \forall x \in T: x = x, but not things like \forall x: x = x.

"Every real number and set that could possibly arise" means the elements of \mathbb{R}, or of \mathcal{P}(\mathbb{R}), or of \mathcal{P}(\mathbb{R} \cup \mathcal{P}(\mathbb{R})), et cetera.


The "standard model" is simply the following map:
(1) Each constant symbol is mapped to the real number or set it denotes.
(2) P is mapped to the set-theoretic power set operator \mathcal{P}
(3) \epsilon is mapped to the set-theoretic membership operator \in


Then, the complete first-order theory of real analysis simply consists of every true statement of this language. (If you prefer, it simply takes every true statement as an axiom)

So, Q is true in the standard model if and only if Q is in this theory.


Every consistent infinite first-order theory has a nonstandard model. (Which means that every statement of the theory must be true in the nonstandard model)


Because our theory of interest is complete, we know that for any statement Q, either Q or ~Q is in the language. It is then easy to show that Q is true in the nonstandard model if and only if Q is in this theory.


And thus, a statement in this language is true in the standard model if and only if it is true in the nonstandard model.

Happily, we can find a nonstandard model where:
(1) \mathbb{R} \subset {}^\star \mathbb{R}
(2) \epsilon is mapped to \in
(3) \forall T: P(T) \subseteq \mathcal{P}(T)

The important thing to note, here, is that the internal power-set doesn't contain every subset -- it only contains the internal subsets.

Statements, such as Dedekind completeness, can be made within this first-order language. (Using the internal power-set function, and the internal membership operation)

Since Dedekind completeness is true in the standard model, it must also be true in the nonstandard model. (According to the aforementioned interpretation)

The resolution to the apparent paradox is that Dedekind completeness says the following:

Every internal Dedekind cut of R is generated by an element of R. (Why internal? Because we formulate it using the internal power-set operator)

When we pass to the nonstandard model, the above statement must be true. Since the converse is also true, we have the following external theorem:

A Dedekind cut of *R is internal if and only if it is generated by an element of *R.

Hopefully this exposition resolves your issues about completeness and the transfer principle!
------------------------------------------------------


We can, of course, study the ordered field *R without doing it the nonstandard way.

*R is ordered, so it has a topology. Its open sets are simply those of the form (a, b), where a and b are hyperreal numbers. For example, this means the definition of the limit of a function is entirely unchanged! (It's still given by the epsilon-delta formulation)


Among *R's topological properties is:

(1) It's totally disconnected. (Yuck)

(2) Every convergent countable sequence is eventually constant.

(3) Every countable subset of *R is bounded.


*Z is an integer part of *R. This means that it is a discrete ring with the property that for every element r of *R, there exists an n in *Z such that n \leq r &lt; n+1.

*N is, of course, the nonnegative subset of *Z.



We have the following theorem:
Let F be any ordered field.
Let I be an integer part of F.
Define an I^+-indexed sequence by: a_n := 1/n.
Then, \lim_{n \rightarrow +\infty} a_n = 0.

Recall that, by definition, this means:

<br /> \forall \epsilon \in F^+ : \exists N \in I^+: \forall n \in I^+: (n &gt; N) \implies (|a_n| &lt; \epsilon)<br />

Which is easy to prove, by the definition of "integer part". (There exists an M such that M \leq 1/\epsilon &lt; M+1)



There are, of course, many different nonstandard models of R, and they have different external properties. For example, you can ask things like "What is the minimum length for an unbounded sequence?" or "What is the cardinality of *R?"

There are other interesting properties too. If I recall correctly, there exist Cauchy complete nonstandard models of R. However, a Cauchy sequence cannot be of countable length -- it must have an uncountable index set.

There's a refinement of Dedekind completeness that means the same thing, I think: the separation between the two parts of the Dedekind cut is not allowed to be bounded below by a positive number.

So, for example, the Dedekind cut:
(infinitessimals, and everything negative) : (positive finites and infinites)
is not fair game, because the gap between them is "too big".
---------------------------------------------------------------

These ideas extend into the algebraic domain in two ways.

The "baby version" of all of this is the theory of real closed fields -- it only concerns itself with the semi-arithmetic operators (+, *, <, etc), and doesn't try to model any set theory.

A good example of a real closed field is the set of real algebraic numbers.

A version of Dedekind completeness is valid for any real closed fields. (E.G. if you are only using the semi-algebraic operations, you'll never know you're missing pi)

Similarly, if you are willing to pretend that only semi-algebraic sets exist (things definable in terms of polynomial equations and inequalities), any real closed field is actually fairly nice, topologically. (This, I believe, is closely related to "internal sets" in nonstandard analysis, and is one of the issues that drives my current interests)



The other connection is that algebraists have defined something they call a hyperreal field, whose definition you can see at Wikipedia which are related to nonstandard models of the reals. (some of the hyperreal fields are some of the nonstandard models, and I suspect they all are, from the right perspective)

Ack, I'm rambling. I'll stop now!
 
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  • #58
russ_watters said:
That isn't how limits work. A limit is an exact number - what tends to infinity isn't the limit (actually, I'm not sure if it has a name, but it's the "x" below...).
Ie:
lim 1/(1-x) = 1
x-> 0 (sorry - hate latex)
The equals sign is for real - that limit really is exactly equal to 1. The "x" is approaching something (infinity), but the limit itself is exactly equal to 1.
An interesting link, using polygons inscribed in a circle: http://www.coolmath.com/limit1.htm
"n" approaches infinity, but the limit is exactly equal to the circle.
And that's the entire point of limits - to find exact values for things that are otherwise difficult to pin down (such as the slope of a curve at a single point).
I actually enjoyed calculus-I (yeah, I'm a freak), because when I got my arms around this concept (didn't just plug and chug, but actually understood the point of limits), calculus-I became a piece of cake. It also helped that I took it in conjunction with Newtonian physics and they are so related that both help you learn the other.

You're not a freak, I enjoyed math too, but calculus seems like ALOT more work. I always look ahead of my book several lessons and couldn't wait until the next lesson :smile:

You said you enjoy claculus, well I enjoy it too, but I can't do it or understand it. Why?

Mainly because I have a huge comprehension problemw hen reading, audio is not a problem, and when I can ask questionst o clear things up isn't a problem, but reading is, very often. Also homework is very difficult, except for math. It took me much longer and I regulary triple checked my work in math.

However, due to the stres of homework, in 10th grade I was in algebra I in a regular school. So I went to a charter school, never fully got though algebra (Although I did get through pre algebra, but I forgot everything! Yes, everything) never got through geometry, or trig, or pre calc. So as you can see, if I do these, will calculus and the limits become easier to understand? I really have a passion for learning it.

I now got my diploma from a charter school. I want to understand physics but can't without knowing claculus and trig.
 
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  • #59
Sir_Deenicus said:
Perhaps we are talking about 2 different things? 0.9... does not tend to 1 on the hyperreal line because the hyperreal line contains infinitesimals!

The picture argument. On the hyperreal line, There exist numbers between every number that disallow the step required for 0.9... to converge at 1. We cannot make the inductive jump. 0.9...9, 0.9...9 + e, 0.9...9 + 2e and so on.

The formal attacks. Consider the first proof given http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~alopez-o/math-faq/node41.html#SECTION00531000000000000000".
The proof fails since it is possible to choose e > 0 but less than or equal to all *R. Then e cannot equal 10 ^ (-1/d). Indeed the proof ends up saying something meaningless like infinitely approximately less than zero.

Again in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_0.999..._equals_1" it states: Since there exist non zero infinitesimals we can only say that the series gets aproximately close to 1 since we are approximately close to 0 (there exists 0 < e ~= 0). But in fact the whole endeavoure is meaningless since the cuts that created the entire decimals should not have been possible! Since we have e, the gaps created should have been empty. There is no concept of inifinite precision, just a line riddled with gaps as we go through all c in our original set. In fact, the proof is not possible since a meaningful upper bound cannot be found in *R due to the existence of infinitesimals.

Suppose we rewrite the decimal number as a sequence, then because there is no completeness [axiom] in *R, it cannot be shown to converge or diverge etc. I end like so:

The archimdean property is equivelant to the statement s = {1/n} converges to 0. Any system which contains infinitesimals is non-archimedean. The hyperreals contain infinitesimal and thus s = {1/n} does not neccessarily converge to 0. This fact, coupled with the lack of gurantee of convergance on monotonic sequences and a lack of least upper bound property all point that the series 9 * sum(n, infinity,1/10^n) over *R, whose properties are accounted for in their totality cannot be shown to converge at 1.


Damn dude the R seems complicated I heard it means all real numbers whatever that means.

I'm 17 and quite frankly I am done with high school i should know calculus but I took the easy route and never needed to fully complete algebra, geometry, trig, pre calc, or calculus. Unfortunatey, it hurt me. Now i have to learn it somehow like with a tutor with no money (dont even have money for a book, car is sold, don't want to walk to work everyday, don't have any friends as I am a nerd)

Still, sounds confusing. I'm curious, Sir_Deenicus, do you have a PhD in math? Quite impressive. I think people here keep thinking I'm like 40 or so and have a PhD in mathematics because i may be able to understand limits one day but this...I doubt it. :confused: :smile:
 
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  • #60
QuantumTheory said:
Damn dude the R seems complicated I heard it means all real numbers whatever that means.
I'm 17 and quite frankly I am done with high school i should know calculus but I took the easy route and never needed to fully complete algebra, geometry, trig, pre calc, or calculus. Unfortunatey, it hurt me. Now i have to learn it somehow like with a tutor with no money (dont even have money for a book, car is sold, don't want to walk to work everyday, don't have any friends as I am a nerd)
Still, sounds confusing. I'm curious, Sir_Deenicus, do you have a PhD in math? Quite impressive. I think people here keep thinking I'm like 40 or so and have a PhD in mathematics because i may be able to understand limits one day but this...I doubt it. :confused: :smile:

Lol :biggrin:, I am glad you think me so skilled but I am far from it. I am only 3 years older than your 17 by a few months and am a first year maths student in University. In fact, I too did not learn any mathematics in high school (no geometry or calculus, only algebra). I reaped the public school system to its full benefit and did not learn much math through it. But at your age, 17, I decided to buckle down and teach my self a bunch of stuff since I am interested in fundamental questions. Between 17 and 19 i changed degrees a few times - from Computer science (1/2 a year) to computer engineering (1.5 years) before now settling with math. But yeah almost all my knowledge is self gained and taught. I am soon to begin study of algebraic topology...

I struggle to keep with Hurkyl and Matt's clear explanations are quite easy to follow. I have certainly learned much in these series of exchanges. Anyway, you should consider getting a job so you can buy books. You can never have too many books. Make some friends as well :), do not underestimate the value of human companionship. :smile:
 
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  • #61
Hurkyl your post is long and I was only able to skim but will read it more thorougly later. (it also got a bit disconnected as you went on :P). I have no problems with the internal sets agreeing, I see now that it is obvious. But I extended my issue not with them but to P(*R), which you later say is not fair game (exclude finites etc.) but state there exists an isomorphic statement to dedekind completeness in *R. I have to read more on this but from what i know DC is not fair game for extension. Sorry to seem so stubborn but I am quite certain of that correctness.

Another thing, if *R is totally disconnected then you can't define a concept of a topology for it! This is something my intuition strongly rebels agaisnt. Surely you must have made a mistatement that needs clarification there?
 
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  • #62
Of course we can define a topology for it; if we couldn't then the statement 'is totally disconnected' would be meaningless since it is a statement about topological spaces (the cantor set is another such, as is any discrete topological space). If your intuition rebels against this and you're prepared to make such a strong statement of assertiveness then I will automatically dismiss any other suggestions you make.
 
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  • #63
If it helps you internalize things, you should observe that Q is also a totally disconnected topological space.

("totally disconnected" means that every open set is disconnected)
 
  • #64
If there is no law stating whether .999999...=1 or not, than it's neither... I guess it depends on if you think it does or not... There is no way to prove that .9999...=1 without anything speculitive... It depends on how you view it, seriously...
 
  • #65
No, it depends upon how we have chosen to define the terms. There is no law stating anything if we choose not to accept definitions as being true, I am not even compelled to accept that 4/2=2 if I choose to accept different meanings from those commonly accepted. (No one is saying anything is absolutely true, only true within in the meanings we give things, by the way, and if you ignore those meanings that is your problem and puts you outside the realm of mathematics.)
 
  • #66
Hurkyl said:
("totally disconnected" means that every open set is disconnected)

Thanks, that one helped alot. My knowledge of topology is pretty cursory and gotten from a CS angle. I am soon to undertake a proper math treatment on it and its algebraic counterpart however. On NSA however, I am more confident on, having read more (first Keisler, then numbers, then an interest in proof systems) and so will continue to contend.

By the way, I've managed to find something that states explicitly what I've been arguing. More than just arguments from what may possibly be my misintepretation...

http://www.motionmountain.net/CAppendix.pdf" Apparantly the surreals have this property as well!
 
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  • #67
I hate to take an authoritative stance, but that reference simply has it wrong. :frown:

I can only imagine three things the notation 0.99\bar{9} can possibly mean with regards to the surreals:

(1) It is a "hyperdecimal" -- that is, a *Z-indexed sequence of digits -- for which every place to the left of the decimal point is zero, and every place to the right of the decimal point is 9. This "hyperdecimal" is exactly equal to 1.

(2) It is trying to denote an "ordinary" decimal expansion of a hyperreal number -- but any nonterminating "ordinary" decimal does not converge. As I mentioned earlier, a countable sequence converges if and only if it is eventually constant. A strictly increasing sequence, such as 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... (that is, \{ 1 - 10^{-n} \}_{n \in \mathbb{Z}^+}), does not converge in *R, so it cannot denote any hyperreal number at all.

(3) The reals are embedded in the hyperreals. 0.99\bar{9} denotes a real number, which in turn is a hyperreal number. But this approach also clearly leads to 0.99\bar{9} = 1.


The surreal case is even stickier -- the surreals are far "too big" for any sequence to converge in the ordinary sense... no matter how long the sequence was... unless it is eventually constant. So, I don't really have any idea what the author could possibly mean by trying to refer to a surreal number via a decimal expansion.

(of course, the real numbers can be embedded in the surreals -- so you denoting a surreal by a decimal expansion can make sense if you say that the decimal expansion denotes a real number, and then that real number is in the surreals... but then clearly that would say 0.99\bar{9} = 1 in the surreals)



I suspect the author is simply confused by the fact that the sequence \{ 1 - 10^{-n} \}_{n \in \mathbb{Z}^+} does not converge to 1 in either the hyperreals or the surreals. This is easy to see in the hyperreals because, for any positive infinitessimal e, we have that (1-e) is greater than every term in that sequence. (But, that's not true for the sequence \{ 1 - 10^{-n} \}_{n \in {}^\star \mathbb{Z}^+})

Similarly for the surreals. We can construct a number "between" that sequence and 1 as being the surreal number:

s = { 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... :: 1 }

This defines a surreal number, which is strictly greater than each number in { 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... }, and yet strictly less than each number in { 1 }.

And then, I could look at { 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... :: s }, which is strictly less than s, and so forth.



However, this is a true statement in the surreals:
1 = {0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... :: }

But this is misleading, because this is also true:

1 = {0.4, 0.49, 0.499, 0.4999, ... :: }


In both cases, 1 is the "simplest" number greater than everything in the left set, which gives us the equality.
 
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  • #68
QuantumTheory said:
Quite impressive. I think people here keep thinking I'm like 40 or so and have a PhD in mathematics because i may be able to understand limits one day but this...I doubt it. :confused: :smile:
What? :confused:
 
  • #69
Hurkyl said:
I hate to take an authoritative stance, but that reference simply has it wrong. :frown:

(2) It is trying to denote an "ordinary" decimal expansion of a hyperreal number -- but any nonterminating "ordinary" decimal does not converge. As I mentioned earlier, a countable sequence converges if and only if it is eventually constant. A strictly increasing sequence, such as 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... (that is, \{ 1 - 10^{-n} \}_{n \in \mathbb{Z}^+}), does not converge in *R, so it cannot denote any hyperreal number at all.

But it is your word vs his... Nonetheless I have no knowledge of surreal numbers beyond that they have to do with something called Conway Games. However on hyperreals, your second point, point 2, is exactly what I have been arguing!

Sir_Deenicus said:
Suppose we rewrite the decimal number as a sequence, then because there is no completeness [axiom] in *R, it cannot be shown to converge or diverge etc.
...

But then, since the hyperreals is not complete, a cut in *R would not allow one one to create a decimal concept would it? 9/10^n + 9/10^(n + 1) + 9 /10^(n + 2) + ... where all the numbers are not necessarily [simply] reals but [also] finite hyperreals, the series would not converge since there would be infinitesimals in the way [of precision]. Thus the question precludes itself.

Why am I still so certain of incompleteness of *R? I have 4 texts which claim so, (one by Keisler, , one a Springer Verlag Graduate text on Numbers, one on NSA with Automated Formal Systems) and http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~stroyan/InfsmlCalculus/FoundInfsmlCalc.pdf" . Pages 11 and 14.
 
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  • #70
I can go through the proof that a convergent countable sequence of hyperreals must be eventually constant from the ultrapdroduct construction, if you like. It's an ugly mess, though! :smile:


I don't think it really matters though -- I get the suspicion you're so busy trying to refute "*R is complete" that there's a subtle difference between that and what I'm saying! (And as I mentioned, it took me a while to pin down this subtlety myself!)


You are correct in saying *R is not (externally) Dedekind complete.

But I'm saying *R is internally Dedekind complete.


You are correct in saying the N-indexed sequence {1 - 10^(-n)} does not converge to 1 in *R. (it doesn't converge at all).

But I'm saying the *N-indexed sequence {1 - 10^(-n)} does converge to 1.


Also, I'm saying that the correct notion of "decimal" when looking at the hyperreal numbers involves having *N-many decimal places (not N-many).
 
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  • #71
Hurkyl said:
I can go through the proof that a convergent countable sequence of hyperreals must be eventually constant from the ultrapdroduct construction, if you like. It's an ugly mess, though! :smile:
I don't think it really matters though -- I get the suspicion you're so busy trying to refute "*R is complete" that there's a subtle difference between that and what I'm saying! (And as I mentioned, it took me a while to pin down this subtlety myself!)
You are correct in saying *R is not (externally) Dedekind complete.
But I'm saying *R is internally Dedekind complete.
You are correct in saying the N-indexed sequence {1 - 10^(-n)} does not converge to 1 in *R. (it doesn't converge at all).
But I'm saying the *N-indexed sequence {1 - 10^(-n)} does converge to 1.
Also, I'm saying that the correct notion of "decimal" when looking at the hyperreal numbers involves having *N-many decimal places (not N-many).

I agree with all that! And can also truthfully say that I did not (fully) before this exchange. I have much to learn yet and wish I had already the knowledge so that a more interesting conversation would have been possible. I nonetheless do not think this a wasted endeavour since I at least, gained from it. :P

Perhaps I shall return to this with more to offer months hence and with a robust construction and some practical results proven in Isabella in tow! Thanks. EDIT: except for that last bit. Although true, my argument truly did not rest on that but on the cuts across all *R and not just internal subsets. I sort of feel that focusing on internal sets is boring since its kinda obvious, it is after all what makes analysis possible and useful with hyperreals. I much like the intricacies involved with P(*R) and creating a consistent treatment across all of it.
 
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  • #72
vaishakh said:
There is a lot of difference between something tending to 1 and something being 1. we approximate it to 1, but need not be that it is actually 1. The explanation given by Nagzun was really fantastic. Something tending to 1 being written as 1 when we don't know the actual value is a different case. This is what happens in GP. We don't know the actual value and so the formula given is a/1-x wherew x<1. Here a Mathematician is sue that no one tommorow will give a unique perfect answer to this question about summation about GP to infinite values, So he approximated the formula. We write root-2 as 1.414, But 1.414 is a unique rational number. However root-2 is not really 1.414, it only tends to that value. We have no use of finding root-2 to hundred decimals to solve numericals. So we neglect the remaining. We can be sure about the fact that 1 is something very near to the number 0.999~. However we cannot tell, that both are equal.

You seem to have an unfortunate concept of limits. The sequence 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, 0.9999, ... "tends" to 1. However the definition of 0.9999... is that it is the limit of that sequence which is 1. Let me repeat that for clarity: the sequence "tends" to 1 so the limit IS 1. Yes, we can say that 0.999... is equal to 1.

I'm not sure where you got your information about geometric progressions (and 0.999... is the limit of a geometric progression. But note that it is the limit of the geometric progression, not the progression itself.) but I hope no teacher actually ever told you that " We don't know the actual value and so the formula given is a/1-x where x<1.Here a Mathematician is sue that no one tommorow will give a unique perfect answer to this question about summation about GP to infinite values, So he approximated the formula."
If mathematicians use approximations, they say so! We do know, for a fact, that the sum of the infinite geometric progression \sum_{n=0}^\infty ax^n is exactly \frac{a}{1-x} as long as -1< x< 1.

And though it was probably just a matter of imprecise wording, I feel compelled to point out that ("We write root-2 as 1.414, But 1.414 is a unique rational number. However root-2 is not really 1.414, it only tends to that value.") root-2 does NOT tend to 1.414. It does not "tend" to anything- it is a specific number (close to but not equal to 1.414) and numbers stay put!

Finally, when I saw "Here a Mathematician is sue", I was sorely tempted to respond that I know one mathematician who is sue- though she prefers to spell it with a capital S! Fortunately, I restrained myself. Of course, I nevr mak typographzcal errirs!:smile:
 
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  • #73
I still don't undertstand how .999~ = 1.

Below is my reasoning of why .999~ does not equal 1:

+You say the partial sums = to 1 and 1 is the limit. I still don't see how .999~ = 1. I see two separate individual numbers. Knowing .999~ is not a process it is not "extending" "tending" "traveling" (all of which require time) to infinity it is already in the state of being .999~. If the partial sums of this number 9/10+ 9/100 +9/1000 +9/10000 and we continue on with this progression into infinity we will still be short of 1 by
.1^-Nth . Therefore with my reasoning i conclude that .99999 does not equal to 1.

+Why do we even speak of the "partial sums of the number = 1" how does this relate to .9999~ = 1 .9999~ is an individual number. Take a real world example. There exists 1 cat named tom and 1 dog name spark, two separate individuals Tom = Tom True Spark = Spark True Tom = Spark False just the same as .99999~ (Tom) Does not equal 1(Spark).

+"if you let it go to infinity it will equal 1" it will not it will continue on with the same progression forever .999...

+Acums Razor : .9999~ simply by looking at it and by the definition of equality cannot in any way other then appoximation be equal to 1.

+no two objects can exists in the same place at the same time.
.9999~ = 1 (Two separate objects occupying same space) False 1 = 1 (same object occupying same location) True.

+"they'd need to accept that 3*1/3 is not only 1 but also 3*1/3 = 3*0.3~ = 0.9~."
I accept 3 * 1 / 3 = 1 I also accept 3/3 = 1 & 3*0.3 = .9~
I don't follow your logic 3*1/3 is 1 but ALSO
3*1/3 = 3*0.3~ = 0.9~
well i just said 3 * 1/3 = 1 and 3*0.3 does not equate to 1 (it quates to 0.9~) . 0.9 ~ does not qual 3*1/3 it equates to 1 . What you are saying is 1 = .9~ = .9~
same as saying Bush = Clinton = Clinton False

But then again

+ .9~ is in the state of being the number not in the process of "extending" or "traveling" to infinity it is static. therefore taking the partail sums of the number.9~ will not result 1. There is no end to infinity .999~ the sequence (9/10 + 9/100..) will continue (timeless, it is already in the state) and it wil never equate to 1.

Please feel free to comment on my reasonings maybe you can make me understand.
 
  • #74
mombogumbo said:
I still don't undertstand how .999~ = 1.
Below is my reasoning of why .999~ does not equal 1:
+You say the partial sums = to 1 and 1 is the limit. I still don't see how .999~ = 1. I see two separate individual numbers. Knowing .999~ is not a process it is not "extending" "tending" "traveling" (all of which require time) to infinity it is already in the state of being .999~. If the partial sums of this number 9/10+ 9/100 +9/1000 +9/10000 and we continue on with this progression into infinity we will still be short of 1 by
.1^-Nth . Therefore with my reasoning i conclude that .99999 does not equal to 1.
+Why do we even speak of the "partial sums of the number = 1" how does this relate to .9999~ = 1 .9999~ is an individual number. Take a real world example. There exists 1 cat named tom and 1 dog name spark, two separate individuals Tom = Tom True Spark = Spark True Tom = Spark False just the same as .99999~ (Tom) Does not equal 1(Spark).
+"if you let it go to infinity it will equal 1" it will not it will continue on with the same progression forever .999...
+Acums Razor
Actually, it's "Ockham's Razor" named for William of Ockham, a franciscan friar, born in Ockham, Surrey, England, about 1280.
: .9999~ simply by looking at it and by the definition of equality cannot in any way other then appoximation be equal to 1.
+no two objects can exists in the same place at the same time.
.9999~ = 1 (Two separate objects occupying same space) False 1 = 1 (same object occupying same location) True.
+"they'd need to accept that 3*1/3 is not only 1 but also 3*1/3 = 3*0.3~ = 0.9~."
I accept 3 * 1 / 3 = 1 I also accept 3/3 = 1 & 3*0.3 = .9~
I don't follow your logic 3*1/3 is 1 but ALSO
3*1/3 = 3*0.3~ = 0.9~
well i just said 3 * 1/3 = 1 and 3*0.3 does not equate to 1 (it quates to 0.9~) . 0.9 ~ does not qual 3*1/3 it equates to 1 . What you are saying is 1 = .9~ = .9~
same as saying Bush = Clinton = Clinton False
But then again
+ .9~ is in the state of being the number not in the process of "extending" or "traveling" to infinity it is static. therefore taking the partail sums of the number.9~ will not result 1. There is no end to infinity .999~ the sequence (9/10 + 9/100..) will continue (timeless, it is already in the state) and it wil never equate to 1.
Please feel free to comment on my reasonings maybe you can make me understand.

Do you see what you are doing?
"I see two separate individual numbers"
"There exists 1 cat named tom and 1 dog name spark, two separate individuals"
"Bush = Clinton = Clinton False"
In everyone of these you start from the assumption that there are two separate things. You can't use that to then prove that there are two separate things.

I accept 3 * 1 / 3 = 1 I also accept 3/3 = 1 & 3*0.3 = .9~
I don't follow your logic 3*1/3 is 1 but ALSO
3*1/3 = 3*0.3~ = 0.9~
well i just said 3 * 1/3 = 1 and 3*0.3 does not equate to 1 (it quates to 0.9~) . 0.9 ~ does not qual 3*1/3 it equates to 1 . What you are saying is 1 = .9~ = .9~

You are leaving out an important step: do you accept that 1/3= 0.3333~? If you do then 3(1/3)= 1= 3(0.3333~)= 0.9999~. If you don't accept that 1/3= 0.3333~ then, of course, we are back where we started. The point of the person you quoted here is that many people who will not accept 1= 0.9999~ will accept that 1/3= 0.3333~
(If you do not accept that 1/3= 0.3333~ are you saying that 1/3 cannot be written in decimal form?)
.9~ is in the state of being the number not in the process of "extending" or "traveling" to infinity it is static. therefore taking the partail sums of the number.9~ will not result 1. There is no end to infinity .999~ the sequence (9/10 + 9/100..) will continue (timeless, it is already in the state) and it wil never equate to 1."
Okay, so you accept that we are talking about a single number, not a "process". But then it makes no sense to say it "continues".

Once again, the definition of the "decimal fraction" 0.a_1a_2a_3... is that it is the limit of the infinite sequence 0.a_1, 0.a_1a_2, 0.a_1a_2a_3... or (same thing) the sum of the infinite series
\frac{a_1}{10}+ \frac{a_2}{100}+ \frac{a_3}{1000}+....
(Those are the same because an infinite sum is, by definition, the limit of the sequence of partial sums.)

In particular, the value of the infinite repeating decimal, 0.aaaa..., is, by definition, \frac{a}{10}+ \frac{a}{100}+ \frac{a}{1000}+ ...= <br /> \frac{a}{10}\left(1+ \frac{1}{10}+ \frac{1}{100}+ ... which is a sum of a "geometric progression". It's easy to show that its sum is \frac{a}{10}\left(\frac{1}{1- \frac{1}{10}}\right)= \frac{a}{9}.
 
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  • #75
So, if x=0.\bar{9},
then 10x=9.\bar{9},
thus 10x-x=9.\bar{9}-0.\bar{9},
that is 9x=9,
so x=1. End of debate?
 
  • #76
You could just do 1-0.\bar{9}=0.
 
  • #77
Treadstone 71 said:
You could just do 1-0.\bar{9}=0.

Yeah, but that would assert the truth of that which was to be proven.
 
  • #78
benorin said:
End of debate?


No (and that isn't a proof anyway, just a justification) as you'll see if you stick around. It's quite amazing how many people really don't get it when it's explained, and even more amazing how they will often then refuse to get it.
 
  • #79
matt grime said:
No (and that isn't a proof anyway, just a justification) as you'll see if you stick around. It's quite amazing how many people really don't get it when it's explained, and even more amazing how they will often then refuse to get it.


As Harry Turtledove likes to have his characters say, Ain't that the sad and sorry truth!
 
  • #80
A humble contribution...

A humble contribution... Principles Of Mathematical Analysis - Rudin (1976), pg. 11, section 1.22 Decimals.
 

Attachments

  • #81
mombogumbo said:
+no two objects can exists in the same place at the same time.
.9999~ = 1 (Two separate objects occupying same space) False 1 = 1 (same object occupying same location) True.
So by that reasoning you can't have 0.5 = 1/2. Or 3/6 = 1.2/2.4. By that logic, if a number is expressed in a different way, it is a different number. Is 3/6 different from 1/2?
 
  • #82
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  • #83
coming next to this same theater, the exciting sequel:
why does 1.9999... = 2?
 
  • #84
mathwonk said:
coming next to this same theater, the exciting sequel:
why does 1.9999... = 2?
Good God! I finally get my head around the fact at discussion, and you throw this at me! I see why 0.999~=1 now, but I just won't believe that 1.999~=2! No way!

:rolleyes:
 
  • #85
Integral said:
Several people found http://home.comcast.net/~integral50/Math/proof2a.pdf" of interest.
that proof uses the nested interval theorem, and doesn't quite quote it correctly. you also need that the length of the interval tends to zero (although this is clearly still satisfied)
[:shy: sorry for being pedantic, just wanted to make it rigorous!]
 
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  • #86
To expand on what rhj23 said: the proof Integral refers to asserts:
"I now apply the nested interval theorem, which states that the infinite intersection of a set of nested intervals contains a single real number"- which is not correct. The "nested interval theorem" (most notably used to prove that any closed and bounded interval in the real numbers is compact) says:
"The intersection of a sequence, {In}, of closed, bounded, nested intervals is non-empty. If, in addition, the length of In goes to 0 as n goes to infinity, then the intersection contains a single number".

The intervals used in the cited proof are not closed, so the intersection is not necessarily non-empty. (Example: Let In= (0, 1/n). The intersection of that infinite sequence of intervals is the empty set.)
 
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  • #87
presumably we could just take the closure of these sets though, and then the conditions are satisfied..
i.e. 1 - \frac{1}{n} \leq 1 \leq 1 + \frac{1}{n}
 

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