Does an Illegal Turn Ticket Affect License or Plate Number in Canada?

[DaveC426913]

I just got nipped for $100 for an illegal left turn. I am going to fight it.

Does this kind of offense go against the driver's license or against the plate number?

The officer made a mistake on the plate number. If it goes against the plate number, this offense will simply fall through the cracks.

(That's not my defense, I'm just wondering if I need to bother buildng a defense.)

 

[Evo]

I just got nipped for $100 for an illegal left turn. I am going to fight it.

Does this kind of offense go against the driver's license or against the plate number?

The officer made a mistake on the plate number. If it goes against the plate number, this offense will simply fall through the cracks.

(That's not my defense, I'm just wondering if I need to bother buildng a defense.)

In the US it's the driver's license.

What did you do?

 

[Phyisab****]

Yea what constitutes an illegal left turn?

 

[jtbell]

Obviously, if you turn left in front of a sign that says "No Left Turn"...

 

[rewebster]

I got a ticket one time for an 'illegal right turn' (on a red light when no traffic was coming)---the sign was mixed in with a bunch of other signs on the far side of the intersection which was six lanes (two through and one turn) of traffic away, plus a large median that had diagonal parking in the middle area, plus the diagonal parking near the sidewalk (the sign was about 75 or 100 ft away from me.

I think the sign was for 'newcomers' as a income source.

 

[DaveC426913]

This is an intersection where police are trying to change the behaviour of drivers. It used to be two lanes for the left turn but has been reduced to one. Police are nabbing anyone who continues to turn left from the centre lane.

Problem is, traffic is coming off an off-ramp. Traffic must cross two lanes to get in the correct lane before the intersection. There is only 500 feet to do so.

Today, there is construction blocking the left lane just back from the interection, reducing the distance to 250 feet. The result is that it is physically impossible to get into the left lane until you are almost at the intersection.

The officer saw me trying to squeeze into the left lane at the last moment and assumed I'd raced up the centre lane to make the left turn. He likely did not know about the construction.

 

[MotoH]

fight it. I almost guarantee you the ticketing officer won't show up to the court case and it will be dropped. Most cops have better things to do than to make a ticket stand that they are forced to write.

 

[edward]

This is an intersection where police are trying to change the behaviour of drivers. It used to be two lanes for the left turn but has been reduced to one. Police are nabbing anyone who continues to turn left from the centre lane.

Problem is, traffic is coming off an off-ramp. Traffic must cross two lanes to get in the correct lane before the intersection. There is only 500 feet to do so.

Today, there is construction blocking the left lane just back from the interection, reducing the distance to 250 feet. The result is that it is physically impossible to get into the left lane until you are almost at the intersection.

The officer saw me trying to squeeze into the left lane at the last moment and assumed I'd raced up the centre lane to make the left turn. He likely did not know about the construction.

If you can, go back and take a picture of the intersection and the construction. Then fight it.

 

[edward]

fight it. I almost guarantee you the ticketing officer won't show up to the court case and it will be dropped. Most cops have better things to do than to make a ticket stand that they are forced to write.

They started paying overtime to the cops here for showing up in court

 

[DaveC426913]

I've attached my diagram.

My defense:

I have been ticketed for making an improper left turn. It is my contention that I was in the left turn lane upon reaching the intersection and therefore made a proper left turn.

The officer was unaware of extenuating circumstances out-of-sight of his location that resulted in the delayed lane change. He made an assumption about my intent in that he assumed I’d raced up the centre lane and attempted to get into the left turn only upon seeing him pulling vehicles over.


The intersection is at the corner of Harbour St and Yonge St. Traffic comes down off the Gardiner Expressway Eastbound and must shift over two lanes in order to be able to make the turn from Harbour St. Eastbound to Yonge St. northbound. The distance in which these lane changes must occur is less than one block – 500 feet. At 10:15 AM (the time of the incident), downtown traffic is still bumper-to-bumper, and moving over two lanes is difficult at-best.

I had begun signaling to move into the left lane the moment I got off the highway. I inched forward with traffic, waiting for an opening. I finally got a break shortly before the intersection. From his vantage point, the officer did see me signaling to get into the left turn lane.

What the officer did not see was that further back around the corner the left lane is blocked for most of its length by several Black & MacDonald trucks cordoned off with traffic cones (see pictures). This reduced the possible distance for lane change from 500 feet to about 250 feet. It was physically impossible to get into the left lane until just a few car-lengths before the intersection.

I even have video!

 

[cronxeh]

"lol, Canada" was my first thought. I remember when I did 100+ in Jersey on I-95 going to PA. Got a good deal of tickets, plus the cop was spitting all over the place while he was yelling at me. Long story short, nobody cares about Jersey

 

[edward]

I've attached my diagram.

My defense:



I even have video!

That looks really great. Go for it.

 

[zomgwtf]

Hmph whenever I'm downtown and need to change lanes in a situation like that I push myself into the lane... whoever wants to hit me go ahead. I would fight it though.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It looks good Dave. I might make a more simple argument but the extra explanation keeps it from being too terse. You may want to avoid making statements of what you believe the officer was thinking as fact but rather summarize his explanation to you for why you received the ticket (assuming he gave one).
Just my opinion. I am not aware of how they treat these things in Canada, so you likely know better than I.

fight it. I almost guarantee you the ticketing officer won't show up to the court case and it will be dropped. Most cops have better things to do than to make a ticket stand that they are forced to write.

Not sure about Canada but like Edward said there are places where they pay officers to show up for court and they even assign court dates to certain days that the officer is supposed to be there for the particular purpose.

Not sure if it works the same way there but here you can refute a ticket by mail and if the DAs office does not respond in a timely manner then the offense is automatically dropped.

 

[GeorginaS]

The only time it goes against the plate and not the driver is when it's a photo ticket.

 

[baywax]

I just got nipped for $100 for an illegal left turn. I am going to fight it.

Does this kind of offense go against the driver's license or against the plate number?

The officer made a mistake on the plate number. If it goes against the plate number, this offense will simply fall through the cracks.

(That's not my defense, I'm just wondering if I need to bother buildng a defense.)

What city was this Dave? If there's a sign that says no left turn between such and such and such and such the cop will win. If the olympic motorcade was within a km you might be in jail without a trial for 10 years. But that's good news when you get out because then you can sue them. Next time have a luge or a bobsled with you and they'll give you money or better yet, a gold medal, for turning left!

Oh yeah... it'll go against the driver license #. But if they're basing their license number on the wrong plate number they will be billing someone else.

 

[Pythagorean]

Yeah, sounds like crappy traffic engineering. That's a solid defense in the US. What's even weirder from my US perspective are that the cops are trying to micro-manage the traffic engineering themselves (which they aren't qualified to do).

 

[DaveC426913]

What city was this Dave? If there's a sign that says no left turn between such and such and such and such the cop will win.

Toronto. And it is a perfectly legal left turn.

In fact, left lane must turn left. See top of picture #2. There is a sign overhead that shows what each lane is supposed to do.

 

[zomgwtf]

Toronto. And it is a perfectly legal left turn.

In fact, left lane must turn left. See top of picture #2. There is a sign overhead that shows what each lane is supposed to do.

You did make an illegal lane change though and the turn would be illegal because you switched lanes too close to an intersection. So I'm not sure exactly how it'll play out, hopefully they will understand the situation and it will work out in your favour.

 

[DaveC426913]

You did make an illegal lane change though and the turn would be illegal because you switched lanes too close to an intersection. So I'm not sure exactly how it'll play out, hopefully they will understand the situation and it will work out in your favour.

That would be true if there weren't construction blocking most of the lane.

Note, BTW, that the offense is not for illegal lane change; it is for an illegal left turn. They are exclusive. If I were making an illegal left turn, it would be because I was, in fact, in the centre lane. Which means I cannot have made any lane change.

 

[zomgwtf]

That would be true if there weren't construction blocking most of the lane.

Note, BTW, that the offense is not for illegal lane change; it is for an illegal left turn. They are exclusive. If I were making an illegal left turn, it would be because I was, in fact, in the centre lane. Which means I cannot have made any lane change.

I understand that but since you made a lane change so close to an intersection in order to make a left hand turn it's an illegal turn I'm pretty sure, regardless of if you were in the left lane at the time of the turn or if you were turning from the centre lane itself.

I understand your situation completely though and I'm confident that you will win your case the construction going on in the GTA in general is horrible thanks to Canada's Economic Action Plan. In my area alone (Mississauga) the have built new traffic lights... in 2 different locations. Both locations they built 2 new sets of lights.

Both locations now have 3 sets of lights within I'd say 100m... So that's on average one set of light ever 33m... rediculous. Directly in front of the comlex I live in has been ongoing construction for about 6 months now ripping apart the roads to replace various pipes, understandable... they have like 3 different operations going on on the same stretch of road however at the same time... The road is crazy.

 

[cronxeh]

I don't know about Canada, but having a map with a few things written on it will not get you out of the ticket. Most courts will side with a cop. You got to ask yourself.. is there a reciprocity for a violation from one country to another? For example a traffic ticket in Toronto will show up on your New York license, but won't show up in most other states. A ticket in Quebec it will show up in New York and Maine. You should look up this reciprocity for your own state from state DMV website.

Besides, from the looks of it, you went around all this bumper-to-bumper traffic and merged into their line when you saw an opening? If you did that in front of me I would break your little clown car

 

[zomgwtf]

I don't know about Canada, but having a map with a few things written on it will not get you out of the ticket. Most courts will side with a cop. You got to ask yourself.. is there a reciprocity for a violation from one country to another? For example a traffic ticket in Toronto will show up on your New York license, but won't show up in most other states. A ticket in Quebec it will show up in New York and Maine. You should look up this reciprocity for your own state from state DMV website.

Besides, from the looks of it, you went around all this bumper-to-bumper traffic and merged into their line when you saw an opening? If you did that in front of me I would break your little clown car

Who cares why exactly does that matter at all? As well I don't think you've driven downtown Toronto so I don't think your opinion really matters on daves actions.

Anyways how ELSE are you supposed to merge... when there are cars in the way? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

OH BTW in Canada they are called Provinces, not states, thanks.

 

[cronxeh]

Who cares why exactly does that matter at all? As well I don't think you've driven downtown Toronto so I don't think your opinion really matters on daves actions.

Anyways how ELSE are you supposed to merge... when there are cars in the way? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

OH BTW in Canada they are called Provinces, not states, thanks.

You have an eyesight problem?

 

[DaveC426913]

...I don't think your opinion really matters on daves actions.

If I didn't want opinions I would not have posted in the first place...

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't know about Canada, but having a map with a few things written on it will not get you out of the ticket. Most courts will side with a cop.

Right. Unless the cop was unaware of the mitigating circumstances around the corner preventing drivers from moving into their lane of choice at the earliest opportunity.

That is why I have attached the photos of the lane blockage.

You got to ask yourself.. is there a reciprocity for a violation from one country to another? For example a traffic ticket in Toronto will show up on your New York license, but won't show up in most other states. A ticket in Quebec it will show up in New York and Maine. You should look up this reciprocity for your own state from state DMV website.

My own state is Ontario...

Besides, from the looks of it, you went around all this bumper-to-bumper traffic and merged into their line when you saw an opening? If you did that in front of me I would break your little clown car

No. I did not zoom up the centre lane. I inched up the centre lane, along with all the other traffic in the centre lane, and I was signalling all the way. Just before the intersection was the first time I got a break.

 

[cronxeh]

No. I did not zoom up the centre lane. I inched up the centre lane, along with all the other traffic in the centre lane, and I was signalling all the way. Just before the intersection was the first time I got a break.

Ok. However, from cop's vantage point, he will say that you were in the center lane and he observed you make a left turn cutting off traffic in the left lane. He does not need any proof. He will tell the judge what kind of weather it was, visibility conditions, and that he had an unobstructed view of your vehicle and never lost continuity of observation.

I did not know you lived in Canada, I thought you were a US resident who got a ticket in Canada. If that was the case I would've advised you to ignore it if it wasnt going to show up on your record.

Oh and another thing.. did the left lane have a solid white line or double line between left and center lanes? If so you can't cross that lane legally

 

[baywax]

Dave, no idea about Toronto. Notoriously flat. No olympic motorcades to worry about. I'd say the fact of the sign is your best defense.

 

[Evo]

Dave, I can't believe that you got a ticket for merging into the turn lane. Is there a law that says at what point before a turn you can no longer legally change lanes?

 

[Norman.Galois]

I learned to ask for court services in French. I have that right. They drop the fine just about everytime.

 

[Norman.Galois]

Yeah, sounds like crappy traffic engineering. That's a solid defense in the US. What's even weirder from my US perspective are that the cops are trying to micro-manage the traffic engineering themselves (which they aren't qualified to do).

Ontario has the best setup for highways and roads. In all the places I've been, the US probably has the worse. Meaning New York State, Michigan State, and Pennsylvania. You can miss an exit, you're screw and lost lots of time. In Ontario, all exits are made to go on and off easily. Of course, if contruction is going on, not much you can do.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ok. However, from cop's vantage point, he will say that you were in the center lane and he observed you make a left turn cutting off traffic in the left lane. He does not need any proof. He will tell the judge what kind of weather it was, visibility conditions, and that he had an unobstructed view of your vehicle and never lost continuity of observation.

Yes. I am not refuting anything about the officer's account. That's the beauty of my defense. What he saw is God's truth.

But he did not account for mitigating circumstances.

Oh and another thing.. did the left lane have a solid white line or double line between left and center lanes? If so you can't cross that lane legally

Yes. The solid white line is marked on my diagram.

My defense is that the construction is a game-changer.

 

[Pyrrhus]

As a Transportation engineer, I agree with Dave. The cop shouldn't have given him a ticket.

Good luck Dave!

 

[DaveC426913]

Update:

Lodged my plea of not guilty. I will hear from them some time in the next six months.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Right. Nothing is your fault. This cop is just confused and misguided and the world is out to get you.

Police officers are not infallible and they do have occasion to give tickets that are not warranted. That is the reason why there is a means to fight them. ;-)

 

[zomgwtf]

Police officers are not infallible and they do have occasion to give tickets that are not warranted. That is the reason why there is a means to fight them. ;-)

As well in some situations the cop isn't the one who is supposed to make a judgement call on whether the law was broken. They are there to uphold the CURRENT views on law not set precedent, that's for the courts(assuming the ticket is given such as in this situation). So yes what dave did IS 'illegal' as he made a lane change to make a left hand turn too close to the intersection. The question is though due to the circumstances IS it punishable? In my opinion it's not. I do not think that the officer is at fault since dave hasn't said that he was rude or obnoxious or anything of the sort. It's clear that a majority of people who have spoken in this thread have sided with daves plea of not guilty and now the only thing to do is wait for judgement

@Dave, when I had said earlier that you didn't want cronxeh's opinion it was because I could already see where he was going with everything. He was assuming things in his very first post that he could have possibly no idea about.

@cronxeh, I still am under the imperssion that you have never in your life driven in downtown Toronto, I would love to see you do so during rush hour.

 

[zomgwtf]

Well let's just start off by saying that I have my share of traffic tickets, and I fought them all, and I have lost in all cases. I brought witnesses that were in the car with me, I took pictures, it did not matter. I live in New York City. Population 8 million. I don't know how many people take the public transportation in Toronto, but we have 4 times the number of people here, so I'll just assume that my traffic conditions are far worse than yours.

That being said, there were other people who were already in the left lane. Answer me this: how did these people get in that lane? Why was Dave not able to get in the same exact lane that was occupied by other motorists around him. What possible reason does he have not being able to merge for, what is it, 400 feet? Let me try to assume this: he was riding past all that bumper-to-bumper traffic hoping to see an opening. Well he did not see one until he got to the solid white line when people assumed nobody was arrogant enough to cross it in front of them. He can blame construction and sun glare, pesky pedestrians, etc. But the bottom line is: the other people managed to get in there because they put on a turn signal, waited for an opening, and changed into left lane in anticipation of making a left.

At first I could've given you some slack, thinking maybe you are from US and driving there, not knowing the local streets, but that isn't even the case.

That's awesome you live in a city with greater population. It's actually closer to 3x the population of Toronto but sure, it is larger. Now let's look at the way the streets are engineered for both cities and then maybe you'll go away?

You assume that the traffic is 'far worse' than the ones in Toronto, yet you also assume that dave was just driving comfortably along in the centre lane looking for an opening. You are mistaken if you think that is how rush hour traffic works here, very mistake. Which is exactly WHY I had originally said that your opinion won't matter for much.

 

[Redbelly98]

Allow me to say, in an honest attempt at some humor and nothing more:

And the sign said / Anybody caught turnin' left / Will be ticketed on sight.
So I made my left turn / And I yelled at the sign / "Hey! What gives y* -=>POLICE SIREN<=-
*uh oh*
(Dave! Didn't you see the sign? Jeez!)

That being said ... good luck Dave.

 

[DaveC426913]

Allow me to say, in an honest attempt at some humor and nothing more:

And the sign said / Anybody caught turnin' left / Will be ticketed on sight.
So I made my left turn / And I yelled at the sign / "Hey! What gives y* -=>POLICE SIREN<=-
*uh oh*
(Dave! Didn't you see the sign? Jeez!)

That being said ... good luck Dave.

 

[Alfi]

I'm a Torontonian also, I know the intersection you are talking about.
With the construction and the traffic, it's a near impossible situation to follow the letter of the law.
Bring in the pictures, and I feel you should be let off.

Just be glad you don't have to face Judge Judy :)

 

[Bruceb]

Hello Guys,

I have most likely received the same type of ticket as the poster, HTA 141(5), but mine was dropped by the prosecutor right when he realized that I was making a left turn into a mall driveway rather than an intersection.

However, because of that accident and since it was no-insurance case, I have to fight a battle with plaintiff's insurance company.

I am going to base part of my defense on the fact that the offense HTA 141(5) - left turn - fail to afford reasonable opportunity to avoid collision - should still stand and be recognized by the judge because it did not apply to the situation.

However, the plaintiff will probably try to have the judge decide on this. Since, this ticket was not contested and dropped right away by a prosecutor previously, I have to fight the damn thing again.

So, I want to know if you bright bunch of people, know where I can search in the Ontario Traffic Act as to what an intersection is and how it is defined legally so that I can present that to this judge as well so he can accept my case.

thanks,
Bruce

 

[DaveC426913]

DIIIIIIIS.

MIIIIISSED.

I fought it and won.

WOOT!

It was a bigger risk than I thought. If I took the plea, it would be reduced to $60 from $110 and zero points. Wait, what? i.e if I fought it and lost I'd get a 3 point penalty. I had not known this until 30 mimutes before my appearance. How badly did I want this?


Furthermore, as it was pointed out to me three separate times: this is a "regulatory infraction", not a "criminal infraction". The upshot of this is that they don't have to take into account intent or anything, all they have to do is prove that I did it, and it's an automatic conviction.

Again, how badly did I want this?


Anyway, the very short version: the officer's testimony went on at great length describing everything within a hundred of yards of the intersection - every roadside sign, every road painting, every overhead sign. (Even the judge said she had never heard a site described in such minute detail). The officer even said that he drove the route prior to setting up his site to ensure all signs were in place.

So, when it came time for me to question him, I asked him:

You drove your route, and you described this overhead sign 100 yards away? But you did not see this construction filling the lane?

Case dismissed.

 

[HeLiXe]

Good for you Dave :) *squints* So what does that sign say?

Yeah,,,,the construction is a bit clearer imo.

 

[baywax]

Way to be Dave...! Show them damn hosers... yeeeeha!

 

[Evo]

WOOT!

Now that cop will be out to get you.

 

[GeorginaS]

Well done, Dave! (I can't even use your nickname in this instance. Sheesh.)

When you're in the right, it's frequently worthwhile to take the time and show up in court. Glad you did and glad it went well.

 

[JaredJames]

That's awesome.

Sounds like one of those amazing "rabbit out of a hat" defences you see saving the day in films.