Does Religon Show Weakness in Society

[Tom McCurdy]

Is religon a sign of weakness in society. A sign that we are not advance as we should be, that we still must explain our unknowns by superficial means. It seems stupid to us that the ancienct Greeks had many gods like Zeus and Posideon, will that be the case in the future. Will people from the future wonder why we didn't realize that God didn't exist. This poll is mainly for athiests, although I am sure I will get a bunch of theist responses.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

This is another way of asking do you believe humans will evolve beyond religon.

 

[arildno]

I voted yes.
And yes, already today, a lot of civilized individuals have no need for the mental crutch of religion in their lives
(I'm talking here of prescriptive, institutionalized religion).

 

[PerennialII]

Yes, most religions have nothing to offer ... philosophy will fare better.

 

[olde drunk]

i voted yes with the assumption that your use of the term 'religion' meant the traditional organizations.

let's be mindful that we all have a personal religion which is needed to steer a course through life.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Moses]

OK,
I voted for NO, if it is just "Yes or No" with one word..
In more specific: Yes! In some places in the world, religion either by itself or by the systems who controls it encourage to destroy Earth! An Example is the Christianity Churches who support Imperialism, Colonaliasm and Slave trading... [No offend for christians..ok?] and supporting Land-Lords, which make the society "evolve" through secularism..and thus weakened the religion auithority...

Yes Europre benefit from that in some aspects...but they lost the fact that if a religon system is "not good" and was substituted with another, never means that "every" religion should organization should be treated the same e.d ending the society to be "secular" to reduce that rel. organization authoiry...

 

[Moses]

It seems stupid to us that the ancienct Greeks had many gods like Zeus and Posideon, will that be the case in the future. Will people from the future wonder why we didn't realize that God didn't exist. responses.

a simple thing: Old Greeks are not all the world...even in the old times...did you know how many Monothiests nations where at that time? Generalization of all the world situation about religion depending on just europre "religion evolving" is not valid..i think.

Polythiesm is "broken" in the face of monothiesm, and studies now show that even "Athiesm" [Which you may wonder how i see it polythiesm] is decreasing in "Muslim world" and increase largely in "Christian World", and monothiest religion in general is increasing in China...No generalization, please

 

[Padford]

i voted no, and I'm athiest - well, agnostic, but close enough...
religion may be the stated cause of too many wars and unnessary conflicts, but it certaintally does not show a weakness in society; many of the greatest countries in history were driven by religion - there were not weak.

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I agree that many countries have been driven by religion. That fact does not mean that religion is still not a weakness. Many country leaders have been forced to use religion because of the general moral weakness of the average individual; futhermore, the country leaders usually aren't forced to use religion but have to be religious to become a leader.

I think the problem with countries that don't have strong religious beliefs and aren't successful is that the people are too weak to get along without the religion. They need to be taught and strengthened to not depend on religion.

 

[Padford]

control of the masses, right?
But the best leaders in history didn't need religion.

 

[Janitor]

At their best, religions have been able to inspire talented painters, sculptors and composers. At their worst, as mentioned above, religions have preached intolerance even to the point of advocating killing people who don't believe in the same way. To give atheism its due, Stalin also was a big (atheist) advocate of killing people who didn't see things his way.

I think religions will be with us for thousands more years. I will predict that in another couple of hundred years the percentage of Believers who deny evolution will be as low as the percentage who currently maintain that the Earth is flat.

 

[Moses]

Mmmm, sounds we use one word while speaking about two or more than one thingys..

So: What is Religion guys? I am not out tracking the thread but it is crucial to continue to agree in one usage of the word "religion"

For me i see as: "Religion" is a system for life from God to humans.
i.e for me :A nice guy [girl] saying nice thingys and order peple to follow, is not establishing a religion, even he is claimed to be "send from God..prophet..messenger..whatever"

This is expanded to contain that the tradition mix with what God [yeah, we assume here that He exists, and sees and hears us now!] IS NOT A RELIGION.
EVEN it is calimed to be called religon be people.

Thus, religion still is not a weakness by definition, but the religon organizations [Which leads to society crruption in many nations, and to the highness in others] and who use the "proper religion" as "drugs" to make the societ "high to the max" IS weakened the society by religion.

Janitor, Evolution theory in its base is NOT VALID, but some branches of it is. it is collapsing widely... [ I will see if i can show some links via the web for that]

 

[Moses]

control of the masses, right?
But the best leaders in history didn't need religion.

Well, Genghis Khan was not having a religion [was he good] , others great ones such as Moses , Muhammad , Jesus are

 

[Tom McCurdy]

There is no way there is a substancial number of people who still dont' believe in evolution is there?

Anyone have the percentage?

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Janitor, Evolution theory in its base is NOT VALID, but some branches of it is. it is collapsing widely... [ I will see if i can show some links via the web for that]

please provide links to trusted names in science... not something like timecube

 

[Moses]

There is no way there is a substancial number of people who still dont' believe in evolution is there?

Anyone have the percentage?

Ok, at least I lived in the middle east for many years, among Muslims there, they do not believe that humans are sons of monkeys or bacteria..they believe that the are sons of Adam [Yeah, i am son of dad Adam as well, and mama Eve ] They logically argure that if God says a thingy, and it is proven that God said that thingy, any human condicts it , is wrong..[in their words i am saying]

the bunch of links will come, try to "Very Proper" in english [could you read hebrew? or turkish?]

 

[TENYEARS]

The arrogance is beyond me. If you little fools and old fools alike only understood. Your responses are out of weakness. Out of unconscious unused mind. Young stupid fools. My answer is YES. For the it is out of weakness that even science is formed. You must create a method for the thing you do not understand. If you understand it, experience it what is there to create? Once the one who unerstood is gone there is a need to fill a void because why? Because you are not experiening what they did.

Understanding creates what is perceived as strength. It is not strength, it is that in pure understanding there can be no fear only understanding because the experiencer is in a pure state of witness which leaves nothing left for fear.

 

[Moses]

The arrogance is beyond me. If you little fools and old fools alike only understood. Your responses are out of weakness. Out of unconscious unused mind. Young stupid fools. My answer is YES. For the it is out of weakness that even science is formed. You must create a method for the thing you do not understand. If you understand it, experience it what is there to create? Once the one who unerstood is gone there is a need to fill a void because why? Because you are not experiening what they did.

Understanding creates what is perceived as strength. It is not strength, it is that in pure understanding there can be no fear only understanding because the experiencer is in a pure state of witness which leaves nothing left for fear.

Mmm...ok cool:
Simply, If you PROVED a religion is from Lord God, then people followed that religion. It is a STRONG thingy for society, since their God who knows every things and knows the humans [who without arguing are LIMITED ABILITIES BIENGS, and thus should not be ARROGANT...

The only thingy is investigate: Is that "religion" who leads the society is from "God" and people follow rationally, or is it "A LIE" or/and people follow it just in ingorance and "too much zealotry" such as the Crusaders...or al-Qaeda nowadays...or even George Bush...

I will not be the fool to branch the thread to "which religion is correct" but i say: If "The True Religion" from GOD exists, then people follow that X true religion, it is GREAT to be extremist in that religion, since follow the good rules to the max will make the society STRONGET...and more developed in SCIENCE and KNOWLDGE [Should i put long white beard next to my words to look wise...or they are ok like that ]

 

[TENYEARS]

God has never instructed in the history of eternity any race or beings on any other planet to form any religion. This is reality. Out of the universe, out of god comes all things. So if a religion is born out of god which is all things, then ultimately the relgion came from god but not god the subjective as something separate. I said in the past I would never get logical like this but now I am weak. Much of many relgions is true, it is just interpereted incorrectly by those who do not want to understand or those who don't understand. It is not that they cannot understand.

 

[Padford]

in this months national geographic, the front cover states "was darwin wrong" haven't read the article yet, but it may back you up, Moses.

 

[Moses]

I.

in this months national geographic, the front cover states "was darwin wrong" haven't read the article yet, but it may back you up, Moses.

Yeah, aprreciate it, but i might open i new thread for discussing this issue, to keep this thread on its main track.

Thx for metioning the source, i will added it to my "collection" against Uncle Darwin..

II. At least in my faith...God is mentioning that "for every nation He sent a messenger from Him"...and "people change the origianl message for their own interests and [Cheap] price for this life" ,and they are another "rational creatures" in this planet that we cannot see "simply invisible" they most follow the religion which God oredered them...If they is another "rational being" on other planets...by Logic the "Universe Lord" should "give them the brochure for help". If it is important to mention to us who live on Earth how God deals with other "smart sapiens" He will say it...

 

[anti_crank]

Thx for metioning the source, i will added it to my "collection" against Uncle Darwin..

Don't waste your time. That article deals with new and very recent discoveries that may alter the understanding of the details of human evolution. In no way does it claim that evolution is wrong or that humans did not evolve just like every other species. Unfortunately, the National Geographic, being a somewhat public-oriented publication, decided to go with a sensationalist but potentially misleading title.

Now that you know, I hope you will not claim otherwise, as many who reject evolution are won't to do.

 

[Moses]

To return back to the core point where the "evolution" thingy pop up here:

Simply: In any X society, if they use "rational" i.e. NOT fake legends and nice stories and un logical methologies to compehened the things around them that goes on. It is good [Yeah i know every body knows that!]

HOWEVER, If that X society Religion contradicts with Logic results.. they have to figure out which one is wrong, IT HAS TO BE ONE in this case. Logically speaking not emotionally...

"True Religion" should not contradic with science in its statements, the REAL currect statements which considered "facts"..If they contradic, since religion comes from "Perfect" resource i.e "The-God", and science not from "perfect" resource , it is abvoius who the society will favor...the resource which Never Will make the society Weak..the Ture Religion...

If that religion is not Ture...they all the argument above is screwed.. and science wins in this case against that "False Religion"...

Does it sounds good?

 

[anti_crank]

Great! All you need now is an objective test of whether that religion is True or not.

 

[Moses]

Great! All you need now is an objective test of whether that religion is True or not.

Yep! and at the end some body shows me that I make "kinda sense"!

Anti_crank, we can discuess the objective test in another thread since in this way we can have "more proper" space for it.

Mentioning quickly an objective test before getting back to the main track: The-God should "sign" on it in His own way..call it miracles..proofs wahtever!

If X claimed to be a religion, but it is Not a relgion so X: religion want to be will show a weakness in society, if not in economics or politics for a while, it will show weakness inthe society rationality and its own critical thinking , and this is the worst weakness in my eyes! Remeber that X here is not a religion in this case, evev it is really "well-mixed" with some "true religion staff"

If X is true religion , so all positive thingys about religion remains, and thus it is now a weakness for society! I.E RELIGION DOES NOT SHOW WEAKNESS IN SOCIETY.

Lol, I love the mentor who deleted the couple of posts before this one, and one of them was mine , no actually

 

[Artman]

Religion has other purposes than to answer questions that cannot be answered through scientific means. To many people, it is a source of inner peace and hope, a guide and gauge to self improvement and inspiration, a social institution for persons of similar interests, an outlet for indirect and direct local-level social intervention and assistance (food banks, homeless shelters, etc.)

Many religions ask us to turn our focus outward instead of inward, to consider the needs of others. This aspect can be addressed by society, but at this point in time I can think of few other institutions that help persons strive to achieve this level of morality (as indicated by the higher levels of Kolhberg's morality scale for instance).

I think that fanatical adherance to fringe ideas in religious dogma can be antisocial and indicates a lacking in society and a weakness in religion.

I really think that if the finer points of religion and society could be melded, many "scientific types" would have less problems with religion and see it as serving a useful purpose.

 

[Aquamarine]

A survey and some correlations:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=167
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001523.html

 

[selfAdjoint]

Your second link is "for what it's worth". The -89% correlation is striking, but I am sure you are going to get the usual protests against using Lynn's reported national IQ averages, and quite correctly. The guys at gnxp often throw out ideas that won't bear the weight of serious investigation. It's a blog, after all, not the arxiv.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

I think that only to the extent in which society is dependent on religious metaphysics is the point when the society is truly, "weak". I myself, am a theist, and i think that religion and science is just simply an offshot of the same supreme being, and I don't think neither is closer to this "God".

But anyway, religion answers different questions and can be said to be a valid branch of philosophy. I hold a belief of an "onion" universe. Its as if science peels of one layer, and there's still many layers to peel to see what really lies at the core of this onion. One answer leads to many other questions, some of which lies beyond the bounds of our own intuition.

And yes, religion and science serves different purposes. But are ultimately the same thing, as something originally intended to benefit society as a whole. Since they share similar objectives, each should realize its own place, and work together.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

To return back to the core point where the "evolution" thingy pop up here:

Simply: In any X society, if they use "rational" i.e. NOT fake legends and nice stories and un logical methologies to compehened the things around them that goes on. It is good [Yeah i know every body knows that!]

HOWEVER, If that X society Religion contradicts with Logic results.. they have to figure out which one is wrong, IT HAS TO BE ONE in this case. Logically speaking not emotionally...

"True Religion" should not contradic with science in its statements, the REAL currect statements which considered "facts"..If they contradic, since religion comes from "Perfect" resource i.e "The-God", and science not from "perfect" resource , it is abvoius who the society will favor...the resource which Never Will make the society Weak..the Ture Religion...

If that religion is not Ture...they all the argument above is screwed.. and science wins in this case against that "False Religion"...

Does it sounds good?

Not really, I don't think that, as a theist, religion and science is like EM and the weak interaction. Religion is by no means from the "perfect" source, unless they meet God for breakfast every morning. Religious scriptures are passed down from generation to generation, and often its meaning is tainted by social construction as well as a more carnal interpretation of something divine.

therefore, religion is not as close to the divine as it seems, and neither is science that far away or entirely humanistic. Unless religion recognize that God works in other areas of society such as science and art, then it will be able to form a "true" religion as you have described.

: )

 

[Padford]

Weakness is in all societies, it is everywhere, from physical to social structures, and indeed it is omnipresent in humans. BUT I think religion is vital in binding people with different ideals, together; people who would not usually come together do because of their similar belief in a god or figure or divinity.
Yes, religion may be a means to define what we don’t know, what science cannot tell us - but is not much of science undefined and unproven itself? We cannot be so quick to say religion shows weakness in society – religion gives peace of mind to those who believe it, and to those who don’t it gives them a wondering sensation, makes them think: is it true? And if a persuasive leader, someone of authority comes along and says “God exists,” they’re going to turn a few heads, and make people wonder if they are correct in saying ‘there is no god’.
If we look back into history, for example, we can see how leaders manipulated religion, or lead the masses or the church structure to protect their divine sovereignty. Take the great Napoleon I, for example; he remodelled the Catholic church in the early 1800's so he could strengthen his society, every Sunday he had his priests, ex-monks and cardinals preaching his word, perverting the bible (like MANY, many people have done) to suit his ideals, propaganda infiltrated those people every week, they hear ‘Napoleon is a divine leader, follow him, for he is the second coming,’ once, and they dismiss it – after a year or two of hearing it, they believe it…what I’m saying is that religion brings people together, it is a means to define life and death, and it is a way of getting political support; this masterpiece of either completely false gospel or celestial truth does certainally not show weakness in society.

 

[Moses]

Actually, this is the point that i was almost near to come thu before the thread curved a bit away from it,

Faith makes people stronget...and we have "defense mechanism" in the inner self that makes us stronger. Beleiving in a religion could be rational "you have a valid proof for it" and supporting you, which it is a strong tool here to use in life. On the other hand, religion can be like "gambling" which could boost you up or put you down [and the scoiety on a larger scale] if it is build on the blind faith and not on mind-base [Yeah i admit it: alomst almost all religions in the world has this waekness; blind faith].

In the last type i mentioned up, realigion will be a weakness, since the soctiey is not build in a solid dase in faith. Through history we can see some asocietites rock down other socoetites who the second were much materialistics stronget than the first, but the first has its religion is a strong base and role in society, which lead it to overcoming the second society.

 

[loseyourname]

Religion is a remnant of primitivity, not a sign of weakness.

 

[tiger_striped_cat]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

Now, THAT'S reductionism!

Some of our higher order derived functions may "care" what happens.

 

[Thallium]

Well, I am a living proof that faith is useful, as are many hundreds of thousands of other human beings. I do not call my faith a 'religion'. That word has a different meaning that my 'faith' has. I am against any religious institutionalization, as it prooves that so many religious leaders are weak, perverted and cruel. But when that is said, my God has given me good relief in times of need and my happiness grounds in my faith.

If you think me an uncivilised, unintelligent animal that has never known a crumb of sanity, then so be it. I'm quite used to skepticism and judgement, as everyone else is.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

Depends on what you believe matters...

I enjoy the idea of the human race progressing its knowledge of the world and universe. I view religon as something that was created to control people and outdated. It's practices when isolated have minmal effect, however when religon tries to prevent scientfic growth it frustrates me. I personally would like to know how our collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles got here and if religon is going to get in the way then I believe it does show a weakness in our society. It prevents scientifc growth. Also on an purly ethical standpoint religon has been the source of many useless wars. People believe their relgion is correct, people interpt religon in certain ways, people manipulate religion in certain ways, and often the end result is war and suffering. I value my collection of quarks-- I don't know why I am here, but I enjoy being here and I don't want my life to end because some jackass said that the bible told someone that their religon wants them to kill me. In this fashion religon shows a more primitive state of society that will slowly go be removed as we progress.

Religon is often created to account for the unexplained-- we explain the unexplained there is no need for religon.

 

[TENYEARS]

The study of relgion like science is both a facet of weakness. The weakness comes because the truth is always there in plain site to see. We choose not to and therefore would like to do something more pleasing like this imaginary thing we call life. We all play this joke with ourselves, but deep deep in your mind hiding in the resesses of your soul there in that place you know, yes you do know for I know you. You can only hide from yourself like little rabbit's behind some twigs see me not. To acknowlge truth is a painful experience. It transforms and is sometimes like walking with heavy boots through a deep bog. To see what lies before others and yourself and the future of all. I present the worst, for there is too much hype on the wonderful. These are individuals who do not understand the balance of life. These are the people who will turn a blind eye to it's destruction.

 

[Evo]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.

 

[Moses]

Does religion make society weak? Well I guess you have to define weak. I really don't know. But maybe I can remind some of the physicists here. We are a collection of quarks, leptons, and messenger particles. That's all we are, and it's futile for people to look for anything more than personal meaning in things like sunsets, marriage, music or anything mundane. Religion may bring up some people's lives a trifle. So if it makes the society weak, it really doesn't matter does it? In the end it won't make a bit of a difference.

With all my respect, I disagrre very strongly with this way of looking at the Universe and human in Specific, simply if something is "undetected" never means in does exist, like God [Glory an all praise to him] or Soul, or take from another point: I cannot "detect" Alexander the Great...so he does/did not exist... [Message reached?]

Back to the main track:


Evo! you have just put an Axe in my skull but your comment worth a million
Yes! I agree totally with you in ALL the informations you used in order to conclude your result, but if there is ONE organized religio which it is true, we cannot say that ALL of them are not true and bad. Your experience is mainly with Christianity [which in my way of looking at it..it is a really big sect of Judaism..that has its own sects within now...] I am not a Christian nor a Jew, but i still beleif that the Lord God exist more even than i am exist, not a blind fiath, but by proof [Nay, he did come to my in the dreams or something like that]

I pissed off to the max from bilnd-faith people, by logic God will not agree with it, and i think this is reality. Yep! I feel SO SAD, REALLY SAD about the U.S here since religion IS a weakness for the society, despite Christinaty has very good things but in total it is a weakness in the American society. Atheism better? Nop. a one reason form many [ohh, i ve spoke too much ] is that is not "organized" and will trun society to a miss by chaning laws by "majority rules" system and then the "art of tricking" the masses will start.

I am totally unhappy with the guys [ and the girls ] throughout history how "invent" religion or change the Universe Lord's Message. They desory lots of masses these big losers. I am sure that my Lord is not happy with what they did as well.

 

[TENYEARS]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.

Evo, much of what you say is all true, but because the real purpose is lost in the suffle. We follow but do not see, is that true with only religion? It seems we do that with every facet of life. There will be those who have the need to see in all they do and those who will see in little. Why are they this way? Is it their inability? No. It is something else something human something unfulfilled.

Evo, do not be afraid to let go for there is something there for you. I would like to see an Evo that has that experience. To be free is what we search for. It is our need, our true desire and our destiny. Yes there are born agains who are that way, but there are born agains who are not. There is a phrase when there are two or more gathered in his name. I tell you this and I say it with more certainty than anything written through out all time. If you bring two or more in that name with that in mind look out. I have never been amoung more than one, I would fear two many. For in those moments there is a potential I would lose more of myself. That is what we all fear and yet that is what we all want. Lol

 

[Thallium]

My two cents worth, I don't believe in organized religion, but see the need for it for some people. A lot of people are emotionally frail and need the comfort and emotional security organised religion can give them, it is a needed "crutch". One thing that "Born Again Christians" feed on is distraught people's need to feel loved and accepted, that is what these people prey upon. They sell their religion telling people that they will be loved unconditionally, no more hurt, no more pain, it's sad. But a lot of people need and want this. This emotional "crutch" helps them deal with dissapointment and gives them a feeling of "belonging" so I cannot say it weakens them.

A lot of people are like sheep, they need a herder to keep them going in the right direction, they need someone to tell them what to do. Organized religion does this.

Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to. I actually somewhat fall into this category. I don't believe in organized religion, but wish there were some "God" looking out for me. Athough my father was an atheist, my mother was a devout Catholic and that is how I was raised. Unfortunately as I get older and wiser I realize that it's not true, and it makes me a bit sad. It also didn't help that our priest, Father Nelson, who was so cool and funny and kind and understanding, was excommunicated when it was discovered that he had a wife and kids. I was 12. I realized then how wrong religion was. Do as we say or to hell with you, no matter how good of a person you are.

Then there are the wackos. Those people that have lost touch with reality and have given themselves over to the delusion that some imaginary being is actually speaking or working through them for some devine purpose. These are the dangerous ones. Like the mothers recently that killed their chidren because God told them to. Both of these were instances where the parents were religious fanatics, they home schooled their children in order to isolate them from the heretics. I believe that anyone that homeschools children should be put through rigorous psychological testing and monitored closely.

Evo, I am disappointed. My impression of you was that you were a bright, mature woman. Hee I can see nothing but prejudgement. But I do not ask for anything else.

I don't believe in organized religion either. That is manipulation and may cause mass pressure. I am not emotionally frail. That is not why I believe in God. Perhaps, if it be to your liking, we should reconsider how we raise our future(children) and remove those frail fragments of our society. That way, we will have only intellectuals left - people with high moral - and not the craze and savage that faith breeds amond the weaker evolutionary setbacks in our society.

I do not belong anywhere, Evo. I never go to church because I am not too fond of the bondings that are created there between the members. How they depend on one another and others' opinions on what to do and what not to do. I do sense a mild form of condemnation in your message.

Though, you are partly right in your analysis about organized religions and their function as a guide. I'm neither a fan of such fanatics. Sometimes, when I hold other Christians in regard and observe their "insanity", their utter loss of reality, I am sad. Still, I know that, there are other powers. That is what i believe. As it is with everything in the Universe. Different forces fight each other all the time.

I do hope you will take back some of your prejudice though.

 

[Thallium]

...do not be afraid to let go for there is something there for you. I would like to see an Evo that has that experience. To be free is what we search for. It is our need, our true desire and our destiny. Yes there are born agains who are that way, but there are born agains who are not. There is a phrase when there are two or more gathered in his name. I tell you this and I say it with more certainty than anything written through out all time. If you bring two or more in that name with that in mind look out. I have never been amoung more than one, I would fear two many. For in those moments there is a potential I would lose more of myself. That is what we all fear and yet that is what we all want. Lol

Such riddles are sickening. This message seems to me nothing but delusive and New Age-inspired. Being part of the world soul etc. And the ultimate goal is pleasure. I just read about it. You talk as if you were a herder. What kind of prophetic gift do you suppose that you possess?

 

[Moses]

$%^%^*&$%#%@#%%&^$
%#^&&(&^^%&%$^&*&*%^
#@$$#%^&^$$%&^*&*(%&^

Ok, i did the above so more people will read the next i will right, and may be think in depth about it:

Why we judge all religions by JUST looking at Christianity and its former era..Judaism? And we use our media propaganda is a tool to see other religions?

If the God truly loves us, He will send us a guide and he will NEVER, make us having time on this planet without "saved" revelation of his orders to us [at least the "last edition" of the laws] since the Faith will always be the same...

I am sure that there is some where...even we do not find it yet...or we do not even think that "This religion" IS the one since we have not start thinknig critically thinknig about it

May The-God help us all and guide us all obey Him, not the lsoers who speak in His name and His religion and they are liers..and fools...

 

[Thallium]

If God truly loves you, you must believe that he does. A relationship with God is not a monologue.

 

[Moses]

Well, Thallium, i agrre that the relation ship with God should be from both sides..we human and Him..

Still, on of the thingys that He is grat is even of people "rebel" against
Him, he still provide them with resources [food, drink,love..etc] till the exam time is finished on this planet...and sometimes he punishes too in this life...if it must be accoring to His Wisdom.

Roman Empire fall down against the muslims and the Persina Empire as well, the main reason for that is both societies, were lacking good balance between the spirits and the matter, which make the army weak in hte hard hours... While the muslims army was having a great advantage in that side, and a great disadvantage in numbers of army and weapon..still won...

 

[Evo]

Evo, I am disappointed. My impression of you was that you were a bright, mature woman. Hee I can see nothing but prejudgement. But I do not ask for anything else. <snip> I do hope you will take back some of your prejudice though.

I would say I am opinionated as opposed to prejudiced. As I mentioned I feel there is a need and a place for both organized religion (which I disagree with) and the need for someone to believe in a God. I also mentioned that I would like to believe that there is a wonderful, loving God that can be my invisible best friend, but I have to admit that I don't believe it. I'm actually serious, I wish there were some evidence, any evidence that God is not man made. If someone needs either of these things, I'm all for it (as long as they do not try to impose their beliefs on me).

[quote-Thallium]I am not emotionally frail. That is not why I believe in God.

When I said "Then there are those that don't need or want the mind control of an organized religion, but still believe in a God. This is also ok. These people have a need to feel that there is still something out there that they feel they can turn to as an emotional crutch, a secret "friend" they can talk to." I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. I wasn't implying they are emotionally weak, but they want/need to feel there is something out there looking after them, that they are never "alone". I am basing this on reasons people that believe in God have given me.

I'd be interested in hearing why you believe in God.

 

[TENYEARS]

Such riddles are sickening. This message seems to me nothing but delusive and New Age-inspired. Being part of the world soul etc. And the ultimate goal is pleasure. I just read about it. You talk as if you were a herder. What kind of prophetic gift do you suppose that you possess?

The purpose of the truth is not pleasure for in the end there is no eternal Joy no more than there is eternal pain but there is eternal. You project what you read like we all do to some extent on to whatever you see and experience. The whole forum does it including myself foolishly so. I know people in my life who have call me a prophet on multiple occasions. I am not. God selects no one and yet out of god the universe was born and all things into infinity. I can and do have visions of the future which do indeed happen as I know they will when I have them. I also have experienced other things. These things are not some special law defing force but is part of the natural human condition. When the leaves are ready they fall from the tree. If you pick them prematurely you damage the tree if they stay to long they also may damage the tree. My riddles come from me and they are born from a place with no beginning and no end. We all come from there and as your mind opens to this as a witness you will see and experience the universe in that slow walk towards your destiny.

 

[Moses]

For me, one of the biggest reasons that why i am not Christian [nor a Jew] but still beleving in God is these two faiths HAVE a weakness in their argument that they from God...I like what Prophet Jesus [BTW:i think he is not God, and even Christians cannot say that he EVER claim so..]
said once: Build your faith on the Rock...

TENYEARS, with all my respect, by just mere logic i cannot believe that what you said is true..unless you proof it to me, I am not saying that you are a lier, but i have the right to believe by proof and thus in a rational way...same thingy about Jesus, Moses and other prophets who people claimed that they did miracles...I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT by heaaring about it, since it is a weak proof to build religion on a weak historical resource [aka Bible, with all my deep respect for Christians here]. However, it is proven to me through another way, and i found it a valid proof..[ which is not our topic in this thread..]

Human made religions may organize society...as any goverments despite how bad it is keep the society organized to sum extened regardless of how crab this govement is. But God-Religion IS the system which make the society stronger...a Perfect resource [God] of a system cannot fail in using that system to reach His aim [organizing societies in micro and macro levels, if that system is applied]

 

[Chronos]

Evolution is not flawed in principle. It correctly assumes that life as we know it is the result of a causal sequence of events: constrained first by the age of the universe, and second, the earliest age afterwards it was possible for life to emerge.