Dynamics of pumping fluid into a cylinder with an air hole?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of pumping fluid into a nearly sealed cylinder with an air outlet hole. Participants explore methods to calculate the time it takes to fill the cylinder and determine the size of the hole or its flow coefficient, considering factors like pressure control and fluid dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests various approaches to the problem, including work done, number of air molecules escaping, and force balancing.
  • Another participant questions whether controlling the pump flow rate simplifies the problem, indicating it may not be an issue if flow rate can be managed.
  • A clarification is made that pressure can be commanded instead of flow rate, which changes the dynamics of the situation.
  • It is proposed that, under pressure control, the fluid acts as a liquid piston, with air pressure in the space being equal to that in the fluid. The air flow from the hole is mentioned to be described by the Bernoulli equation, though more accurate calculations are suggested for specific flow conditions.
  • A participant shares a personal experience from 40 years ago involving a similar setup, where a pressure sensor was used to detect when air was no longer present in the tank during the filling process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of controlling flow rate versus pressure, and there is no consensus on the best approach to the calculation or the dynamics involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the assumptions regarding the flow dynamics and the specific conditions under which the calculations would apply, leaving some aspects of the discussion open-ended.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals involved in fluid dynamics, engineering applications related to pumping systems, or those exploring experimental setups for measuring fluid flow and pressure dynamics.

Hepth
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I should be able to do this, but its been a while and maybe I'm making this more difficult that it should be.

Assume you have a cylinder nearly sealed but with an outlet hole at the top. I want to pump a fluid into the canister, pushing the air out of the hole, and time how long it takes. The ultimate goal is to try and see what size the hole is, or even what its flow coefficient (if flow rate Q = Area*velocity*K)

What is the simplest way to go about this calculation? I have attached an image, the outlet hole can go anywhere. Let's say that I can control the pump's flow rate or pressure, and the air starts at 1atm both inside and outside.

What is the best approach? By work done? By number of air molecules escaping? By force balancing?

Thanks!

Any ideas?
 

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If you can control the pump flow rate then this is a non problem ?
 
Sorry, let's say that I can command a pressure only rather than flow rate.
 
In that case the fluid is only acting as a liquid piston . Pressure in the air space is same as in fluid . Air flow from hole is given simplistically by Bernoulli equation though much more accurate calculations are possible for specific conditions of flow .
 
I used something similar 40 years ago. The "air hole" was a small valve. The object was to fill a "tank" with water using a centrifugal pump (large capacity, but could only create about 2 atms of pressure) and then change over to a piston pump (low capacity, but high pressure). Looking up basic physics, I used a pressure sensor mounted right inside the "hole" and waited for the pressure to rise rapidly (at that moment there was no air left inside).
 

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