Effect of the surface roughness of a wing

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effect of surface roughness on wing performance, specifically in the context of an experimental report involving wind tunnel tests. Participants explore how different surface textures (smooth, intermediate, rough) influence lift and drag, stall angles, and the overall aerodynamic characteristics of the wing design.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their experimental setup, including variations in pitch angle and wind tunnel velocity, and notes the calculations of Reynolds number, lift coefficient (Cl), and drag coefficient (Cd).
  • Another participant suggests that the level of detail required in the report may determine whether any key features were overlooked.
  • A participant shares an anecdote about the sensitivity of an aerobatic glider to surface conditions, noting the impact of rain on stall speed.
  • Some participants discuss the effects of roughness on lift efficiency and stall angles, with one suggesting that roughness may induce its own vortex at the leading edge, affecting airflow attachment.
  • There is mention of historical techniques, such as the use of turbulators on model aircraft, and a participant notes their own positive results from similar modifications.
  • Concerns are raised about the interpretation of Reynolds number trends and the potential for competing effects that may not be fully captured in the analysis.
  • One participant proposes a further experiment involving sandpaper and tape to compare their effects on the wing's performance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the implications of surface roughness, with some agreeing on the importance of boundary layer effects while others raise questions about the specific impacts of the roughness used in the experiments. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise nature of these effects and the overall conclusions that can be drawn from the data.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in the data, such as the absence of pressure distribution recordings, which could have provided more insight into the aerodynamic effects being discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and researchers in aerodynamics, particularly those exploring the effects of surface characteristics on wing performance in experimental settings.

MattH150197
Messages
60
Reaction score
3

Homework Statement


I am doing a report on the effect of the surface roughness of a wing on the wing's performance. This was done by testing a a wing design in a wind tunnel using a smooth, intermediate and then rough surface. The test involved varying the pitch angle and tunnel power setting (velocity) for each modification. The results that were recorded were the Lift and Drag for each angle and the power setting that was used for the recording.

The Attempt at a Solution


From these i have calculated velocity of wind tunnel then through this the Reynolds No., Cl and Cd and in my discussion have done graphs for Lift vs. pitch and Drag vs. pitch. I have discussed how the roughness affects the stall angle and min and max Cl and Cd values and also how the Reynolds number increases/ decreases the emphasis that roughness has on the performance. Also plotted L/D ratio graphs, is there any key features i have not discussed that you can notice? Appreciate any help you can offer!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: berkeman
Physics news on Phys.org
Sounds good to me so far, but I'm not an expert in the area. Can you post your results? You should delete any personal information, but it would help to see your report.

Also paging our resident Aero SA @boneh3ad for his thoughts. :smile:
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MattH150197
Whether or not you missed anything ultimately boils down to how detailed your report needs to be. Ultimately, all of the relevant effects can be capture by just saying ##C_D## and ##C_L## are affected, but the truly interesting stuff is in the details of how and why those effects occur.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MattH150197
Not sure if of interest but...

When I flew gliders the club had an aerobatic glider that was sensitive to rain drops on the wing. It was said that this raised the stall speed too close to the max winching speed. For that reason the wing was always dried off carefully before winch launches if wet.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MattH150197
boneh3ad said:
Whether or not you missed anything ultimately boils down to how detailed your report needs to be. Ultimately, all of the relevant effects can be capture by just saying ##C_D## and ##C_L## are affected, but the truly interesting stuff is in the details of how and why those effects occur.
Very good point and for example for the attached graph i have talked about how the rough surface doesn't produce lift as efficiently as the smoother conditions however the roughness seems to prolong the stall angle and how this may be due to roughness at the leading edge of the airfoil inducing it's own vortex and energising the layer of air above the upper surface and consequently the flow remains attached further down the wing than that of the smooth conditions. However the pressure distribution recordings would have really helped for this analysis but this wasn't recorded so its hard to discuss in detail.
 

Attachments

  • Cl.png
    Cl.png
    20.4 KB · Views: 535
MattH150197 said:
Very good point and for example for the attached graph i have talked about how the rough surface doesn't produce lift as efficiently as the smoother conditions however the roughness seems to prolong the stall angle and how this may be due to roughness at the leading edge of the airfoil inducing it's own vortex and energising the layer of air above the upper surface and consequently the flow remains attached further down the wing than that of the smooth conditions. However the pressure distribution recordings would have really helped for this analysis but this wasn't recorded so its hard to discuss in detail.

Aerodynamics isn't really my thing but I know some model aircraft in the 1970s used turbulators to try and improve performance. These were typically tapes cut with pinking shears (saw tooth) stuck to the top surface ahead of the spar. Some used a thin wire mounted ahead of the leading edge of the wing. Don't know if they are still used. I think aerofoil design has moved on a lot since then.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MattH150197
CWatters said:
Aerodynamics isn't really my thing but I know some model aircraft in the 1970s used turbulators to try and improve performance. These were typically tapes cut with pinking shears (saw tooth) stuck to the top surface ahead of the spar. Some used a thin wire mounted ahead of the leading edge of the wing. Don't know if they are still used. I think aerofoil design has moved on a lot since then.
I actually used some of this for one of my modifications and saw pretty good results! I decided to compare my results to results obtained using xflr5 for the same wing to add something to my discussion. Thanks for your help guys!
 
Overall this seems like a pretty solid experiment, though I'd be careful with the Reynolds number trend. There may be competing effects there that aren't fully captured here.

The bottom line here is that even small roughness can be important through its effects on the boundary layer. You've alluded to that previously, though I'd be very surprised if the roughness you've used is directly introducing any meaningful quantity of vorticity given how small it is. Larger roughness elements can do that, but something as small and distributed as sandpaper usually has a different effect. What you are actually (likely) doing with increased roughness is exciting unstable modes in the boundary layer, which alters the transition point. This is going to be by far the leading order effect on all of the trends you've noted so far.

That said, I still don't know much about the report. Is it schoolwork, and if so, what level of school? How detailed (scientifically) does it need to be?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: FactChecker and MattH150197
boneh3ad said:
Overall this seems like a pretty solid experiment, though I'd be careful with the Reynolds number trend. There may be competing effects there that aren't fully captured here.

The bottom line here is that even small roughness can be important through its effects on the boundary layer. You've alluded to that previously, though I'd be very surprised if the roughness you've used is directly introducing any meaningful quantity of vorticity given how small it is. Larger roughness elements can do that, but something as small and distributed as sandpaper usually has a different effect. What you are actually (likely) doing with increased roughness is exciting unstable modes in the boundary layer, which alters the transition point. This is going to be by far the leading order effect on all of the trends you've noted so far.

That said, I still don't know much about the report. Is it schoolwork, and if so, what level of school? How detailed (scientifically) does it need to be?
Thanks this is extremely useful!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: berkeman
  • #10
If you want something additional to try in your tunnel (assuming this is a 2D airfoil, i.e. not swept), then try putting a strip of sandpaper near the leading edge and then run the same test with just a 2D strip of tape with the same height as the sandpaper in the same location.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: CWatters, MattH150197 and FactChecker

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
Replies
4
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
5K
Replies
15
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
5K