Effects of Cooling and Heating in a Cloud Chamber

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the operational principles of a cloud chamber, specifically focusing on the effects of cooling and heating within the chamber. Participants explore the implications of having a cold bottom plate and a warm top plate, questioning how this configuration affects the function and visibility of particle tracks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the rationale behind cooling at the bottom and heating at the top of the cloud chamber, seeking to understand its impact on functionality.
  • Another suggests that the cooling configuration may reduce heat flux when using alcohol as the vapor, and questions how this would differ if water were used instead.
  • A participant describes the basic operation of a cloud chamber, noting that the vapor formed from evaporating liquid alcohol cools as it descends and condenses on the cold bottom plate.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the behavior of vapor, questioning how cooler vapor can fall faster than warmer vapor if the temperature gradient is reversed.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of maintaining a large supersaturated region for improved particle visibility and proposes that placing the cold plate at the top might enhance this region.
  • It is noted that to preserve particle tracks, the supersaturated region should remain undisturbed, as convection eddies could distort the tracks if the heated surface were at the bottom.
  • A participant suggests that an experimental setup could be used to observe the effects discussed, rather than relying solely on calculations.
  • One participant expresses intent to conduct an experiment to confirm their hypotheses regarding the cloud chamber's operation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the optimal configuration of the cloud chamber and its effects on supersaturation and track visibility. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing ideas presented.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the behavior of vapor and the effects of temperature gradients are not fully explored, and the discussion includes unresolved questions about the calculations needed to support various claims.

HotFurnace
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Good day everybody!
As we have already known the structure and operation of the cloud chamber, can someone explain to me why the cooling is done at the bottom of the chamber and the heating at the top, but not vise versa?? How this affect the function of the cloud chamber?
 
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Maybe because they want to reduce the heat flux from the hot side to the cold side when using alcohol as the vapor? So what about water, since it is lighter than air?
 
A simple cloud chamber consists of the sealed environment, a warm top plate and a cold bottom plate . It requires a source of liquid alcohol at the warm side of the chamber where the liquid evaporates, forming a vapor that cools as it falls through the gas and condenses on the cold bottom plate. So you actually want the vapor to fall.
 
I don't understand?? The vapor is heavier as it cooler, so the vapor closer to the cold bottom plate is cooler than the vapor layer right next to it, how could it fall down faster than when you reserve the temperature gradient?
 
We always want the supersaturated region as large as possible, so as to improve particles visibility. That's why I asked if reserving the cold plate could help?
I think the cold plate, if some mechanism were implemented to keep it at a appropriate constant temperature regardless of the heat flux flowing through it and are placed on the top, will provide larger supersaturated region than with the cold plate at the bottom. How could I do a calculation to prove (or disprove) it?
 
To preserve the tracks, you need the supersaturated region to be as undisturbed as possible. Convection eddies would distort any tracks produced if the heated surface was at the bottom.
 
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HotFurnace said:
How could I do a calculation to prove (or disprove) it?

don't need to calculate ... the experiment would be easy to set up and you would observe the
problem as stated in the quote below
darth boozer said:
To preserve the tracks, you need the supersaturated region to be as undisturbed as possible. Convection eddies would distort any tracks produced if the heated surface was at the bottom.
exactly :smile:
 
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Thanks for all replies! I will do a experiment to confirm this!
 
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