Electromagnetic induction open cuircuit and how to determine direction

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around electromagnetic induction, specifically focusing on the behavior of induced emf in open and closed circuits, and the implications for current flow and magnetic poles in solenoids. Participants explore the concepts of induced emf, current direction, and the effects of circuit closure on these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that when a magnet is pushed into a solenoid, an induced emf occurs, but in an open circuit, no current flows, leading to questions about whether any poles are formed to repel the magnet.
  • There is a discussion about how to determine the direction of current flow in a solenoid, with some suggesting that it can be labeled as clockwise or counterclockwise based on the direction of the magnet's movement.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the perspective from which to view the solenoid to determine the current direction, debating whether to look at it vertically or from the cross-sectional area.
  • One participant raises a question about the implications of having an induced emf without current, questioning if there would be any resistance felt in an open circuit.
  • Another participant explains that the direction of the induced emf can be determined using Lenz's law, even if no current is flowing, by considering the hypothetical poles of the solenoid if the circuit were closed.
  • There is a challenge regarding the concept of induced poles opposing the magnet when no current is present, leading to further clarification about the nature of emf and its direction.
  • A later reply introduces the Motor Effect, describing how charge carriers experience forces in a magnetic field, even without a complete circuit, which adds complexity to the discussion about induced emf and current flow.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the relationship between induced emf, current flow, and magnetic poles. There is no consensus on whether induced poles can exist without current, and the discussion remains unresolved on several points regarding the interpretation of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of visual aids, such as diagrams, to clarify the concepts discussed, particularly regarding the direction of current flow in solenoids. There are also mentions of the limitations of understanding induced emf without a complete circuit.

sgstudent
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When a magnet is pushed into a solenoid an induced emf occurs. So if it is a closed circuit then an induced current will flow. But if it is an open circuit then an emf will still be induced but no current this time. So will any poles be formed to repel it?

What do they mean by the current flow in a clockwise/anti clockwise direction?

Thanks for the help!
 
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sgstudent said:
What do they mean by the current flow in a clockwise/anti clockwise direction?

A solenoid is a coil of wire. If you push the magnet in one direction the current will flow through the wire. If you then push it in the opposite direction the current will flow the other way in the wire, in the direction reverse of the original. Since it's a coil, you can label these as clockwise or counterclockwise.
 
Drakkith said:
A solenoid is a coil of wire. If you push the magnet in one direction the current will flow through the wire. If you then push it in the opposite direction the current will flow the other way in the wire, in the direction reverse of the original. Since it's a coil, you can label these as clockwise or counterclockwise.

But where do I look to tell the clockwise/ anti clockwise? Do I look at the solenoid in a vertical way meaning that the long solenoid is facing me or do I look at the cross sectional area of the solenoid, meaning I see a circle? I think I should see it in the vertical way right? Because if I look at the cross sectional area it changes if I look at it from the other side... but I'm unsure about this.

2) when I have a magnet pushed into a oprn circuit solenoid, thrn an induced emf will occur but no induced current right? So I will feel no resistance right? I'm doing my GCE O levels so I don't know anything about that small flow of charge even when there is an open circuit.

thanks for the help you guys rock!
 
Your first point: if there is no current because the circuit isn't closed, there will still be an emf, and its direction can still be figured out from Lenz's law, e.g. by considering the poles that the solenoid would have, if the circuit were completed!

As for which way to look at the solenoid, I'd look end-on. See diagram. Statements in terms of clockwise or anticlockwise are, imo, of little use without diagrams.
 

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Philip Wood said:
Your first point: if there is no current because the circuit isn't closed, there will still be an emf, and its direction can still be figured out from Lenz's law, e.g. by considering the poles that the solenoid would have, if the circuit were completed!

As for which way to look at the solenoid, I'd look end-on. See diagram. Statements in terms of clockwise or anticlockwise are, imo, of little use without diagrams.

But if there is no current then how can there be a induced pole to oppose the magnet?
 
Please read my first paragraph again, carefully. The rule is based on the current that there WOULD be, and the consequences of that current. The rule gives you the direction of the emf even if there is no current actually flowing.

Note that I'm not attempting to give you a mechanism for HOW the emf is induced. That's another story, which I didn't think you were asking about.
 
Philip Wood said:
Please read my first paragraph again, carefully. The rule is based on the current that there WOULD be, and the consequences of that current. The rule gives you the direction of the emf even if there is no current actually flowing.

Note that I'm not attempting to give you a mechanism for HOW the emf is induced. That's another story, which I didn't think you were asking about.

I thought that the emf has no direction? Sorry if I'm unclear on this but will there be a force opposing me? Because since its the current that results in the poles being induced then since no current means no force? Thanks dorbtje help!
 
Imagine you move a rod of conductor containing positive charge carriers through a magnetic field. The field is vertically down, the rod lies East-West, and you are pushing it North (in a direction at right angles to itself). The charge carriers will experience forces to the West, along the wire, even though they can't flow (because we haven't given them a complete circuit). These forces arise from the so-called Motor Effect – the force on a charge carrier moving in a magnetic field.
 

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