Embracing Cultural Diversity: A Celebration of Global Connections

[Monique]

I would like to know if there are people here who enjoy other cultures as much as me.. I have personally known people directly from the following countries:

Bulgaria, Croatia, Canada, Zimbabwe, South-Africa, Finland, Japan, China, South-Korea, India, Romania, Australia, Taiwan, Germany, Bangladesh, Brazil, Russia, Armenia, Iran, France, Pakistan, Italy, Poland, United States, Lithuania, Belgium, Great Britain, Ireland, Spain.

I am lucky enough to say that most of them I have gotten to know well enough to call them my friends. Every week, for about two years, I used to go to the Institute of Arts Film Theater, and have seen films from about the same number of countries as listed above. Besides that, I have also enjoyed the cultural cuisines of a dozen countries, going exotic such as internal organs and chicken paws.

Anyone a word on this?

*edit* let's not talk about racism, cultural diversity should be cherished, right?

 

[Monique]

Btw, I have also taken an interest in music sung in foreign languages, this one being my favorite, known by heart. The one knowing the language in which it is sung, may speak up and sing aloud

Suraj Hua Maddham Chaand Jalne Laga
Aasmaan Yeh Haay Kyon Pighalne Laga
Suraj Hua Maddham Chaand Jalne Laga
Aasmaan Yeh Haay Kyon Pighalne Laga
Main Thehra Raha Zameen Chalne Lagi
Dhadka Yeh Dil Saas Thamne Lagi
Oh Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Sajna Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Suraj Hua Maddham Chaand Jalne Laga
Aasmaan Yeh Haay Kyon Pighalne Laga
Suraj Hua Maddham Chaand Jalne Laga
Aasmaan Yeh Haay Kyon Pighalne Laga
Main Thehra Raha Zameen Chalne Lagi
Dhadka Yeh Dil Saas Thamne Lagi
Oh Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Sajna Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai

Hai Khoobsurat Yeh Pal Sab Kuch Raha Hai Badal
Sapne Haqeeqat Mein Jo Dhal Rahe Hain
Kya Sadiyon Se Purana Hai Rishta Yeh Hamara
Ke Jis Tarah Tum Se Hum Mil Rahe Hai
Yunhi Rahe Har Dam Pyaar Ka Mausam
Yunhi Milo Hum Se Tum Janam Janam
Main Thehra Raha Zameen Chalne Lagi
Dhadka Yeh Dil Saas Thamne Lagi
Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Sajna Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai

Tere Hi Rang Se Yun Mein To Rangi Hoon Sanam
Paake Tujhe Khud Se Hi Kho Rahin Hoon Sanam
Oh Mahiya Main Tere Ishq Mein Haan Doob Ke
Paar Mein Ho Rahi Hoon Sanam
Sagar Hua Pyaasa Raat Jagne Lagi
Shole Ke Dil Mein Bhi Aag Jalne Lagi
Main Thehra Raha Zameen Chalne Lagi
Dhadka Yeh Dil Saas Thamne Lagi
Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Sajna Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai
Suraj Hoaa Maddham Chaand Jalne Laga
Aasmaan Yeh Haay Kyon Pighalne Laga
Sajna Kya Yeh Mera Pehla Pehla Pyaar Hai

 

[Monique]

btw, this is the translation of the song for who wondered..

The sun was overhead, the moon began to burn
Oh, why did this sky begin to melt?
I kept waiting; the Earth began to move
This heart lurched; my breath stopped
Is this my very first love?
Darling, is this my very first love?
This is a beautiful moment; everything is changing
The dreams which are spilling over into reality
Is this connection of ours centuries old?
Is that why I'm meeting you in this manner?
Each breath shall remain like this, love's season
Meet me like this in birth after birth!
It's with your radiance that I have been colored, beloved
Having gained you, I am losing myself, beloved
O my love, having drowned in your passion,
I am becoming the shore
The ocean thirsted, the night awoke
In the heart of the flame, fire sparked to life
I kept waiting; the Earth began to move
This heart lurched; my breath stopped
Is this my very first love?
Darling, is this my very first love?
The sun was overhead, the moon began to burn
Oh, why did this sky begin to melt?
Darling, is this my very first love?

 

[Adrian Baker]

Sorry to hear that you have been offended. In my experience, the people who shout 'Racist' at almost anyone these days are comparable to the witch burners of earlier centuries. It goes with 'sexist' and all the other terms. In these politically correct times, if you notice any DIFFERENCE between men and women, or between the races, you are decried as Racist, sexist, whatever...

What is the definition of Racist? To those who see it everywhere, it seems to be 'noticing a difference in people'. Well that is rubbish. Racism is the act of "discriminating against someone due to their racial origins". How is a joke mentioning the fact that Chinese often speak with an accent racist? I teach in a school with a fair proportion of chinese students. I love them dearly, they add a real something to the school, and yes, nearly everyone has a 'chinese accent'. I noticed this, so must be racist too then! (But it hasn't stopped me trying to learn Cantonese!)

(PS I think that I must be exceptionally racist as I recently noticed that nearly all of the world's best long distance runners tend to be of East African origin...)

 

[Monique]

Well, the issue has been cleared, I just think cultures should be cherished. Does anyone else here feel that globalization is a bad thing in terms of the cultural identity of a country. Or is it a good thing?

I mean, traveling is so easy nowadays, and television goes around the world is seconds through sattelite. I think we are doomed to all become the same 9 billion dromes

 

[Mattius_]

In my opinion, promoting one culture, by saying that, say, italians are better at preparing food, you are therefore implying that other cultures are inferior in this matter. So, you could be called a discriminator for promoting a race or culture.

So, this means that differentiating cultures at all,is racist and/or discriminatory. But, the fact is that cultures and races, by nature, genetically, are different.

So, it is impossible not to be racist.

*On a side note, capitalism could also be interpreted as a racist system in that it promotes self-betterment, by whatever means the contemporary mode for advancement accommodates. Some races accel at this contemporary mode of self-betterment(which happens to be intelligence/ambition) than others.

Racism(the definition i have identified) is a way of life.

 

[Monique]

See, this is where the error lies. Liking something over another is not racist or dicriminatory, only when negative action is taken based on such preconceptions. I don't like Italian food, so what, but: Italian food has been banned because I dislike the taste.. a big difference, see?

I think Adrian Baker said it very well :)

I wonder: has anyone had the opportunity to watch foreign films? I absolutely loved it! You get to see those small villages, hear new ideas or believes. I wish that I knew where to find such places here in Holland :(

I once saw a movie, I think it was Tai.. it starts with an old man sitting at a table, smoking. Quietly sitting there, smoking, slowly the camera pans out and the scene changes, morfes, to a scene of mourning. A mother and a son, mourning the death of their husband/father.

The film was about superstitions, the mother was very traditional and she knew that her deceiced husband would come to visit her, in one form or another. She taped every single window with black linnen, so that the light wouldn't shun him. The son had modern ideas and tried to convince his mother to stop the superstition.

One day, the son goes to the refridgerator to get a drink. He sees a roach walking and jells out, slamming it with his shoe, thinks for a moment and feeds the thing to the HUGE fish swimming in a even bigger aquarium. The mom comes running in: has father come? The son says, no, it was just a roach I fed it to the fish. The mother falls down on her knees, crying loudly, what have you done! It must have been your father coming to visit us.

The rest of the movie the mom spent talking to the fish, as if her husband was inside. I don't remember now how it ended, but the concept is just so novel!


Ah! Anyone saw Amélie? French movie, I just couldn't stop laughing, lol.

 

[Monique]

For anyone interested in seeing an international selection of movies that can be seen, go here: http://www.dia.org/dft/pages/schedule.html

That is the Detroit Institute of Art Film Theater, if they show a movie, it must be good there must be some movie-rental places that rent those movies? At least Amélie became very famous.

In January of 2004, the Detroit Film Theatre series of the Detroit Institute of Arts celebrates its 30th anniversary as one of America’s most comprehensive and acclaimed showcases of contemporary and classic world cinema. Over three million patrons have attended DFT screenings, which take place in the DIA’s exquisite 1,150 seat auditorium.

 

[Monique]

For instance this one, a movie made in India:

EVERYBODY SAYS I’M FINE!
(India—2001—Rahul Bose)
Xen (Rehaan Engineer) is a handsome, warm-hearted yet somewhat withdrawn hairdresser, working in an upscale Bombay salon. What his customers don’t know is that Xen’s talents are more than skin deep — he has the uncanny but very real ability to read their minds when touching their hair. Though his customers are quick to tell him “I’m fine!,” Xen is increasingly — and poignantly — aware that most of us have a need to reveal much, much more. Shot mostly in English, this is a lively and original directorial debut with a surprisingly potent kick. (103 min.)

“Beguiling and smart... An idiosyncratic charmer.” —Kevin Thomas, Los Angeles Times

I really have to find a place to watch these movies soon

 

[RageSk8]

I am not to sure about celebrating cultural diversity. Diversity is not always a great thing. Mult-culturalism is relativistic garbage that has served as the new "racism" in rescent years ("that is just their culture" has become a slogan used to ignore and segregate people). Having an inclusive society should pit various cultures against once another, not separate them into exclusive bodies.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Monique,

I'm with you on this. It is always incredibly interesting to come in contact with cultural differences.

I live in what is essentially an Asian neighborhood, although I am not Asian myself. Older Chineese couples go out for walks and the woman walks about 20 feet in front of the man. I was told that this is because of walking on paths for centuries where two people couldn't go side by side. If the man were to go in front and robbers or a wild animal were to attack the woman he might not even know it. Walking behind her he can see if she's in trouble and defend her. Here, in the city, they just keep doing it the same way.

I think things like that are a trip.

 

[Mattius_]

monique,

if some races or cultures are better at say, doing math, wouldn't it be logical to discriminate and have this culture put more pressure in mathematics more proportionately?

Are you saying its ok to recognize difference, but its not ok to exploit the inherent efficiencies in discriminating?

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Monique
For anyone interested in seeing an international selection of movies that can be seen, go here: http://www.dia.org/dft/pages/schedule.html

That is the Detroit Institute of Art Film Theater, if they show a movie, it must be good there must be some movie-rental places that rent those movies? At least Amélie became very famous.

I used to love going to the DIA when I was a child(and even as an adult). My aunt and uncle would take me down there and we'd make a day of it. I always felt a sense of awe wandering through those great halls, then having lunch in the garden cafe. Did you ever see the video wall? That was really cool:)

I also enjoyed the museum of african american history(relatively new) and the Science center. The science center has one of the few omnimax domes in the world(the more common IMAX is just a really tall screen).

As far as cross cultural interest- well I'm sure you know my language fetish

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
In my opinion, promoting one culture, by saying that, say, italians are better at preparing food, you are therefore implying that other cultures are inferior in this matter. So, you could be called a discriminator for promoting a race or culture.

So, this means that differentiating cultures at all,is racist and/or discriminatory. But, the fact is that cultures and races, by nature, genetically, are different.

So, it is impossible not to be racist.

*On a side note, capitalism could also be interpreted as a racist system in that it promotes self-betterment, by whatever means the contemporary mode for advancement accommodates. Some races accel at this contemporary mode of self-betterment(which happens to be intelligence/ambition) than others.

Racism(the definition i have identified) is a way of life.

See, for instance, I would call this a racist statement, in that it implies that some peoples are smarter than others because of race.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Originally posted by RageSk8
I am not to sure about celebrating cultural diversity. Diversity is not always a great thing. Mult-culturalism is relativistic garbage that has served as the new "racism" in rescent years ("that is just their culture" has become a slogan used to ignore and segregate people). Having an inclusive society should pit various cultures against once another, not separate them into exclusive bodies.

To a certain extent I agree. The problem is that many people (particularly those that like to shout 'racist' at others) see multi culturalism as just meaning eating curries, welcoming people from abroad and liking the influence on our culture that they have. But it is deeper than this. To genuinely celebrate multi culturism we should also celebrate the culture of female castration by Somalia immigrants, or stoning to death of adulterers, loss of human rights for women, a belief that the west is 'evil', voodo, medicines made from endangered species parts, daughters murdered for following western lifestyles... the list goes on and on.

I live in a vibrant culture that has been richened by immigration, but that doesn't mean that some aspects of different cultures aren't harmful to our way of life and to the people we accept into our society.
Is being judgemental against a culture that promotes female castration racist?? Should we encourage this practise to continue as it is 'their cultural heritage'?
I think not.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Originally posted by Zero
See, for instance, I would call this a racist statement, in that it implies that some peoples are smarter than others because of race.

The children at my school often call 'Further Maths', 'Chinese Maths' as although only 10% or so of our students are Chinese, they make up 90% or more (sometimes 100%) of the Further Maths Class.

I see myself as a scientist, not a sociologist or someone who wishes the world to be different from the way it is. It seems to me, that for whatever reason, the chinese students tend to be better at Maths than the english students. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but as scientists, we should look at the data and see what it says, not decide what we want the data to say, then ignore anything that contradicts this viewpoint. Is the data 'racist' or just the person who measures it?

 

[Hurkyl]

See, for instance, I would call this a racist statement, in that it implies that some peoples are smarter than others because of race.

Is it still racist if its a true statement?

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker
I live in a vibrant culture that has been richened by immigration, but that doesn't mean that some aspects of different cultures aren't harmful to our way of life and to the people we accept into our society.
Is being judgemental against a culture that promotes female castration racist?? Should we encourage this practise to continue as it is 'their cultural heritage'?
I think not.

Actually, you have got a very good point here. There are cultures who sacrifice a goat on a certain holiday, by slicing its neck and letting it bleed to death. Ofcourse, this is frowned upon by outsiders and think it is cruel. But does it make it right or wrong then?

For the people shouting racist all the time, being multicultural means the following:

When not seeing their faces or hearing their voice, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between people from all over the world. They all have to study, they have to earn money, they all get home to a family, they go to sleep and use the bathroom.
But when you ask further you get to hear stories. A private account of living under Stalin; a story of living in an animal reserve, where taking a walk in you backyard means encountering elephants or lions; a story of the video camera freezing at a wedding, by the immense cold; Japanese tea time; living under political sensor.

Maybe not all cultural aspects should stay the same, I mean, cultures evolve, but there are a lot of things to be learned from it too. I lived two years with an Hindu Indian girl, the Hindus I've met were very passionate for their faith in gods. Praying everyday, giving me accounts of all the holidays observed in India (probably 3 a week :P), those were very spiritual people.

I mean? Wouldn't it be a shame, living without knowing the emotions of other parts of this world? In showing the interest, noticing the differences one can only grow.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Zantra
I used to love going to the DIA when I was a child(and even as an adult). My aunt and uncle would take me down there and we'd make a day of it. I always felt a sense of awe wandering through those great halls, then having lunch in the garden cafe. Did you ever see the video wall? That was really cool:)

I also enjoyed the museum of african american history(relatively new) and the Science center. The science center has one of the few omnimax domes in the world(the more common IMAX is just a really tall screen).

As far as cross cultural interest- well I'm sure you know my language fetish

Eh, cool, you live in the Detroit area? Yes, I've been to all those places.. the dome screen is really nice, have you been to a 3D movie at Henry Ford? That is SO cool, the screen is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE! Have you been to the renewed science center? Its much better than before. I lived right on the edge of the cultural center, walking over to the DIA took me 5 minutes..

 

[Njorl]

The children at my school often call 'Further Maths', 'Chinese Maths' as although only 10% or so of our students are Chinese, they make up 90% or more (sometimes 100%) of the Further Maths Class.

This is a cultural difference, not a genetic one. If you look at cities with very old Chinese populations, San Fran, New York, Philadelphia and Vancouver, you find plenty of 3rd and 4th generation Chinese who have incorporated the American apathy toward math into their lives.

You'd think I'd experience quite a bit of Cultural diversity. I work in a lab with Chinese, Indian, Russian, Pakistani, Iranian, Columbian, Hungarian co-workers, and others I'm sure. They're all so obsessed with work though, very little gets through.

My own particular tastes are Chinese and Austrian food, Russian and Irish music and English history.

BTW, the is nothig wrong with discrimination. It is only misapplied discrimination that is distasteful. Distinguishing good food from bad is discrimination.

Njorl

 

[Adrian Baker]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker
To a certain extent I agree. The problem is that many people (particularly those that like to shout 'racist' at others) see multi culturalism as just meaning eating curries, welcoming people from abroad and liking the influence on our culture that they have. But it is deeper than this. To genuinely celebrate multi culturism we should also celebrate the culture of female castration by Somalia immigrants, or stoning to death of adulterers, loss of human rights for women, a belief that the west is 'evil', voodo, medicines made from endangered species parts, daughters murdered for following western lifestyles... the list goes on and on.

I live in a vibrant culture that has been richened by immigration, but that doesn't mean that some aspects of different cultures aren't harmful to our way of life and to the people we accept into our society.
Is being judgemental against a culture that promotes female castration racist?? Should we encourage this practise to continue as it is 'their cultural heritage'?
I think not.

OOPS - mistake. I didn't mean female castration (impossible) I meant female circumcision, where the female genitalia are mutilated to prevent the women 'enjoying sex'. The idea of course being that the woman will not then rush off and have affairs but will remain acting as a slave to her husband, get no pleasures in life, and remain totally dominated by him. A pleasant practise indeed!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker It seems to me, that for whatever reason, the chinese students tend to be better at Maths than the english students. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but as scientists, we should look at the data and see what it says, not decide what we want the data to say, then ignore anything that contradicts this viewpoint. Is the data 'racist' or just the person who measures it?

It seems to me that the "for whatever reason" is the important consideration. The reason Chineese are better at math is cultural. For centuries math has been tought at home in Chineese culture. Before the advent of the electronic calculator kids learned to work an abacus from their parents, just as they learned to speak. Math is valued in that culture as a basic life skill.

I don't know about European Culture, but here in the U.S. parent's attitude toward their children's schoolwork in general is a mixure of sympathy and law enforcement, an attitude of "Yeah, I had to go through that when I was your age. Just suck it up and do what you got to do."

 

[Monique]

How many Indian people work for Bill Gates, is he a racist? Almost all Chinese overseas students are in engineering, is there a genetic reason?

No, cultural reasons, computers and engineering are fields that offer great opportunities. As you say, Njorl, these things are very easy to lose, this phenomenon won't be seen in a second generation.

Too bad your coworkers are all obsessed with their work, we used to have a coffee time around 4 in the computer room, were everyone needed a break for the hours to come. That time we also spent discussing politics, the riots in Gujarat, education system in Japan (after WWII), research opportunities in India, prostitution in Amsterdam, why the PCRs weren't working.. :P

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker
The children at my school often call 'Further Maths', 'Chinese Maths' as although only 10% or so of our students are Chinese, they make up 90% or more (sometimes 100%) of the Further Maths Class.

I see myself as a scientist, not a sociologist or someone who wishes the world to be different from the way it is. It seems to me, that for whatever reason, the chinese students tend to be better at Maths than the english students. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but as scientists, we should look at the data and see what it says, not decide what we want the data to say, then ignore anything that contradicts this viewpoint. Is the data 'racist' or just the person who measures it?

You should at least pay lip service to the idea that it could possibly have more to do with cultural differences than racial ones.

Here's an example from when I was in high school that may be relevant:

I was on the track team with a guy named Wes. He was the fastest sprinter we had, and he usually placed first in the 100 yard dash...unless there were black kids in the race. The first thought everyone had was "Oh, of course, black kids are natural sprinters, it makes perfect sense!" There was only one flaw in that reasoning: Wes believed that too, so he would unconsciously run slower than normal when he saw a black person running against him!
I'm sure there are many other examples; boys not doing as well in school because it is a 'nerdy' thing, some girls avoiding sports they would be good at because it isn't "feminine" to sweat, etc. I wonder if, at your school, some kids who aren't Chinese avoid advanced math because they subconsciously think that it is a "Chinese" thing?

 

[Monique]

Zero, stop calling this racism. It is not. With a Chinese person is meant a person who came over from China, not a person who has Chinese ancestral roots.

As zoobyshoe said:

It seems to me that the "for whatever reason" is the important consideration. The reason Chineese are better at math is cultural. For centuries math has been tought at home in Chineese culture. Before the advent of the electronic calculator kids learned to work an abacus from their parents, just as they learned to speak. Math is valued in that culture as a basic life skill.

The same thing that I thought it is stupid to write "tough" as it is written and not as "tuff" as in stuff. Until I found out the reason behind it and it all made sense. You may think it is 'racist' to observe that people coming from China are good at math/engineering, but when you find out the hind lying reason it makes sense. I don't know if you ever heard a story about Chinese education? I have, boy! These people go through a lot of suffering in order to be good in what they do best.

 

[Njorl]

.

Too bad your coworkers are all obsessed with their work, we used to have a coffee time around 4 in the computer room, were everyone needed a break for the hours to come. That time we also spent discussing politics, the riots in Gujarat, education system in Japan (after WWII), research opportunities in India, prostitution in Amsterdam, why the PCRs weren't working.. :P

A lot of them don't like to talk about the "old country". One guy I was a bit closer to talked about China during the cultural revolution. His father was a professor, and suffered during the anti-intellectual backlash. For most, the reason they are not still in the "old country" is not pretty.

Njorl

 

[Monique]

About your example, yes Chineze looking person might avoid going into maths, but what is the reason? Not being proud of Chineze culture. About unconciously running slower.. don't think that happens.

Did you know btw that a physiological difference between muscles is a genetic factor that certainly could play a role? Depending on the distribution of white/red muscle, one is preprogrammed to do well on short anaerobic spurts or long exhausting stretches.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Njorl
.

A lot of them don't like to talk about the "old country". One guy I was a bit closer to talked about China during the cultural revolution. His father was a professor, and suffered during the anti-intellectual backlash. For most, the reason they are not still in the "old country" is not pretty.

Njorl

Yes, I know, I too have heard the same story about the supression of intellecutual behaviour, saying something political in China can still land you in jail, freedom of speach doesn't yet exist. But isn't it important to know this? Rather than looking away and pretent everything is well in the world, ask questions and find out what the situation really is.

And for all the negative things we can also find positive things. I have seen Chinese people coming to the US with the dream to gain a lot of knowledge, go back to China and start a revolution, so to say.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Monique,

I think you have misread Zero's post. He did not say a Chinese person might avoid math. He said a non-Chinese person might avoid it thinking it's a "Chinese thing.

Most of his post is a pro-cultural explanation for differences.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Monique
About your example, yes Chineze looking person might avoid going into maths, but what is the reason? Not being proud of Chineze culture. About unconciously running slower.. don't think that happens.

Did you know btw that a physiological difference between muscles is a genetic factor that certainly could play a role? Depending on the distribution of white/red muscle, one is preprogrammed to do well on short anaerobic spurts or long exhausting stretches.

You don't think subconscious handicapping happens...I am telling you that I saw it with my own eyes, and could probably call up my old coach today and he would pull out the statistics. My friend Wes would literally run slower when he was running against black guys. He would pretty much always finish two steps behind whatever black runner was in front of him, no matter how fast or slow the guy was. He almost never beat a black runner in our conference, even though he was on paper the fastest runner overall. It was some sort of 'psych out' for him, and he was so sure that he couldn't win that he just couldn't pass a black runner.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Zero
You don't think subconscious handicapping happens...

It has been proven to exist. In power lifting there used to be a 500 lb. "barrier". No one had ever lifted more than 500lbs. Many people tried an got within five pounds but there came to be the belief it wasn't humanly possible. One wise trainer put 505lbs. on the bar, told his lifter it was 495lbs, and the guy lifted it like it was 495lbs. The 500lb limit was proven to be psychological.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Monique The same thing that I thought it is stupid to write "tough" as it is written and not as "tuff" as in stuff. Until I found out the reason behind it and it all made sense.

Incidently, when English speaking kids are being taught spelling, all this non-phonetic confusion is just as hard on us. If you noticed, I just learned the correct spelling of "Chinese" from you. I hardly ever write the word and "Chineese" seemed right until I saw your spelling and looked it up. We ask teachers all the same questions about why it is so confusing that foreigners do when learning English. Knowing the history helps to understand "why" but it doesn't help you spell.

(Edited to correct html)

 

[Monique]

I am not sure what you mean by that zooby. Anyway, what I meant with this thread is to go out to some local ethic store and look around at the spices and exotic products and experiment a little. Go out and see movies made in countries totally different than your own, you might feel suprised how like the image is, same issues are dealt with but still the concepts are different.

Go to a museum and see the arts of long forgotten cultures, then go to the modern arts section of the museum and be amazed by the difference in expression of art.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
It seems to me that the "for whatever reason" is the important consideration. The reason Chineese are better at math is cultural. For centuries math has been tought at home in Chineese culture. Before the advent of the electronic calculator kids learned to work an abacus from their parents, just as they learned to speak. Math is valued in that culture as a basic life skill.

Isn't it interesting how whenever race comes up, everyone assumes that they know 'the reason' behind things without ANY data at all?

Zoobyshoe says that 'the reason Chinese are better at maths is cultural'. Maybe, but maybe not. How can you say that this is the case without any supporting statement or evidence?

I'm not picking on you at all (I'm just enjoying a good discussion), but as I said about a page or so ago, certain people have a world view where they start with a base belief that 'all the races are identical in every way'. But this is nonsense. The reason that we identify different races is that... well, they are different...!

Is it actually biologically feasible that with the genetic differences between us that give us different races, no other factors are changed in any way whatever?

As an Englishman, I'm quite happy to accept that Chinese are better at Maths, East Africans better than long distance running, the English are violent drunken yobs, whatever. It doesn't bother me at all. After all, there is a broad spread of ability to do all things, across all peoples - it is only at the extremes where differences show. Differences showing up and being noted doesn't mean 'racism'. Discriminating against people due to differences IS racism.

All of the above may be rubbish and I'm happy to be proved wrong or right, but please let's not put what we want to 'believe' ahead of 'fact'.

Remember Galileo and his fight with the Church of the time? He could see with his telescope, that the Earth wasn't the centre of the Universe, with all revolving round it.
It didn't matter what people wanted to believe, or what was obvious, or what the church said...

 

[Monique]

Nice point, but with the fact that people change in different environments, I wouldn't call it genetics.. although as I pointed out, some might have a genetic background that enables them, but without a stimulating environment it won't get you anywhere.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker
Zoobyshoe says that 'the reason Chinese are better at maths is cultural'. Maybe, but maybe not. How can you say that this is the case without any supporting statement or evidence?

In support of my statement I offered the contrasting story of how math skills arenot valued in the home setting in modern American culture. Now, I'm not sure but are you asking me to offer evidence that math is regarded as a basic life skill in Chinese culture? Or do you want me to prove that the fact this is so is purely cultural and not genetic? Are you asking me to prove that Chinese do not have a special "math gene"? Occam's razor relieves me of that burden because a known quantity, in this case Cultural values, fully accounts for Chinese excellence in math. If you disagree with that the burden of proving they have a math gene we don't have is on you. In general I would have to agree with you that there are, at some level, some kind of differences between races, but I think if you strip away the cultural overlay, any actual differences are unimportant.

What seems to be bothering you is a "politically correct" avoidance of noticing that a given race seems to exhibit a noticable characteristic that might be considered negative. Is that a fair assessment of your complaint?

As for my initial

 

[Monique]

I really don't understand why race and genetics keeps coming up in a cultural discussion..

 

[zoobyshoe]

Monique,
Here is what I meant when I said I thought you misread Zero's post:

Zero said:

Originally posted by Zero I wonder if, at your school, some kids who aren't Chinese avoid advanced math because they subconsciously think that it is a "Chinese" thing?

To which you responded:

Originally posted by Monique About your example, yes Chineze looking person might avoid going into maths, but what is the reason? Not being proud of Chineze culture.

Zero never said a Chinese looking person might avoid going into math. He said a non-Chinese person might avoid it thinking it was a "Chinese" thing.

 

[Loren Booda]

The Washington DC area, like several others in the US, is truly a melting pot. After a couple of generations, kids in third grade serve as interpreters for their parents even in such matters as securing a loan.

Last night a beautiful woman helped me and a friend find a classroom. At first I thought her ethnicity Middle Eastern. Later I saw African characteristics in her. Most of all, she appeared a gracious American, a rare gem indeed.

It is terrible irony that the US is a target by those most intolerant of any diversity. Racism is about those (sexually) threatened by the beauty of exotic races they would deny. I think everyone has thought racist things, but some of us have benefited from the gentle yet firm insistence from friends of difference.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Monique
I really don't understand why race and genetics keeps coming up in a cultural discussion..

I agree. I guess your topic uncovered the fact that some people aren't seeing the distinction.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Loren Booda Racism is about those (sexually) threatened by the beauty of exotic races they would deny.

I do not know what this sentence means. They would deny...what?

I think racism is purely cultural. It is taught from one generation to the next. Reasons given for it differ, and I don't think you can boil all racism down to being threatened by something more beautiful than your own culture. People can buy into any plausible reason for racism and get really worked up about whatever reason they buy into. The reasons are interchangable. I guess the most fundamental dynamic I can see is the fact it is possible for people to acquire and maintain an unnecessarily defensive posture toward anything. Some people are phobic about walking on lawns.

 

[Mattius_]

Hmm, i recall a tribe of people with over 80% rate of diabetes within their own population. The calorie intake within each family was moderately low in comparison to the rate of diabetes...

is the way the metabolism works cultural?

hell no.

proof there that genetics do have something, and sometimes, a lot to do with ability human ability.

Could the fact that this tribe having a high diabetes rate help and hinder other parts of their lives? OFCOURSE.

I don't think i have to name any here, because my point has been validated, but i hope this does help some of you more media vulnreable people accept the fact that some races are better in certain areas and are worse in others.

Cmon now don't be silly.

Now, i will revert to my initial post when i said that any recognition of differentiation within a race is racist, and thus, mandatory.

 

[Monique]

Well, I have studied DNA from the Finnish population and have read quite a lot of their population genetics.. populations DO differ and researchers are using these populations as TOOLS for understanding genetics.

In the Finnish population, for instance, there are about 50 very rare recessive diseases very prevalent, by studying this population researchers found out the genes.. such a study would have been difficult in say a culturally diverse population such as in the States.

That doesn't mean though that the Finnish population is genetically inferior, in fact, other very common diseases such as Cystic Fibrosis almost don't exist in Finland.

As some people might know, last summer I went to Italy and attended a conference on "Genetics of Complex Diseases and Isolated Populations" are all these scientists racist, are they designing diseases to whipe out certain populations? I think they are just tapping resources in order to gain knowledge into human genetics.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Hmm, i recall a tribe of people with over 80% rate of diabetes within their own population. The calorie intake within each family was moderately low in comparison to the rate of diabetes...

is the way the metabolism works cultural?

hell no.

This is one sketchy anecdote. I would like to know exactly what their low calorie diet consisted of before jumping to any conclusions. There is a small band of Indians in the southwest who all had a chronic health problem (can't remember what) which was traced to their diet. I believe they had lived for centuries on bread made from nutritious natural grains. The problems arose when they began using commercially processed flour for all the same foods.

proof there that genetics do have something, and sometimes, a lot to do with ability human ability.

A better example of the point you're trying to make would be the very high incidence of colorblindness in the native peoples of the micronesian island of Ponape. Check out The Island Of The Colorblind by Oliver Sacks

I don't think i have to name any here, because my point has been validated, but i hope this does help some of you more media vulnreable people accept the fact that some races are better in certain areas and are worse in others.

If you are going to think along these lines you have a much more pressing issue to deal with than genetic differences between races. Did you know that women have 20% more connective lines between the two halves of the brain than men? It has been proven with pet scans that women can process many kinds of sensory imput both faster than men, and using less brain brain power to do it by virtue of this greater communications capacity of the female corpus callosum. Whatever physical differences there may be between races pales in comparison to the differences between the sexes.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Zoobyshoe asked:

What seems to be bothering you is a "politically correct" avoidance of noticing that a given race seems to exhibit a noticable characteristic that might be considered negative. Is that a fair assessment of your complaint?



In plain terms YES, except I didn't at all mention things being 'negative'. If someone is better at something than me for whatever reason, I don't feel 'inferior' as I'm no doubt better than them at something.

Anyway, you've gone and opened another can or worms now, talking about women's brains...

I'm getting out of here.....

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Monique
Eh, cool, you live in the Detroit area? Yes, I've been to all those places.. the dome screen is really nice, have you been to a 3D movie at Henry Ford? That is SO cool, the screen is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE! Have you been to the renewed science center? Its much better than before. I lived right on the edge of the cultural center, walking over to the DIA took me 5 minutes..

Ya I grew up in Dearborn, though I'm not there anymore. Actually I went to the Henry Ford screen to see the star wars movie just before I left for California. And I also saw the first move they showed (fantasia 2000). I probably didn't get to the science center after it was renewed- it had been a while since I'd been there. But I remember seeing a lot of the movies there. The first time I went, I actually got vertigo . But it was really cool

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Monique
I really don't understand why race and genetics keeps coming up in a cultural discussion..

Because some people are are as fanatical about politcal correctness as KKK'ers are about racism. I liken them to pro lifer who kill people in the name of abortion, and try and justifiy it by referencing the bible. There's such a thing as taking ANY ideal too far.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Originally posted by Zantra
Because some people are are as fanatical about politcal correctness as KKK'ers are about racism. I liken them to pro lifer who kill people in the name of abortion, and try and justifiy it by referencing the bible. There's such a thing as taking ANY ideal too far.

Too right - people like this should be lined up against a wall and shot!

(In the name of freedom of course)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Adrian Baker
In plain terms YES, except I didn't at all mention things being 'negative'. If someone is better at something than me for whatever reason, I don't feel 'inferior' as I'm no doubt better than them at something.

To the extent you can handle what you percieve to be "racial" differences without drawing extreme conclusions I don't suppose anyone would get too worked up. The fact is that there are dangerous people in the world who don't view what they percieve to be "racial" differences so nonchalantly. If "political correctness" seems to be unrealistically undifferentiating, you have to remember it serves as a discouragement to people who easily fall into believing in apartheid , "ethnic cleansing", and foreign forced labor (i.e. slaves).

Anyway, you've gone and opened another can or worms now, talking about women's brains...

Hey, you didn't let me finish. They're the rabbit, we're the tortoise.

 

[hypnagogue]

Monique, Amelie is great. And Audrey Tautou has the most huge gorgeous eyes ever (next to my girlfriend, of course ). She was also in another interesting French movie translated as Happenstance, although literally translated it is "The Beating of the Butterfly's Wings"-- goes into ideas of chaos, chance, fate, random strings of causation etc.

Hm... I also liked Amores Perros a lot. I know there's more good foreign ones but none that I can think of right now that really stand out.