Entropy change : pure mixing of gases

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the entropy change associated with the mixing of two different species of non-interacting gas particles in identical volumes. Participants explore the implications of statistical mechanics and thermodynamics on the entropy change during this mixing process.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant claims that the change in entropy for the mixing process is zero based on statistical and thermodynamical calculations, suggesting a potential conceptual mistake in the SMI calculation.
  • Another participant argues that if the volume remains the same, the entropy change is indeed zero for an ideal gas, but acknowledges that increasing the volume would lead to an increase in entropy.
  • A third participant questions the definition of 'process' in the context of entropy change, indicating that clarity is needed regarding what is being referred to.
  • A later reply corrects a previous claim about the expression for SMI, stating that the particles are indistinguishable within their species but distinguishable between species, leading to a different formulation for the entropy calculation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the change in entropy during the mixing process, with some asserting it is zero while others argue it is not. The discussion remains unresolved as different interpretations and calculations are presented.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made about particle distinguishability and the definition of the mixing process. The discussion also highlights the dependence on the volume of the boxes and the nature of the gases involved.

blackdranzer
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Consider three identical boxes of volume V. the first two boxes will contain particles of two different species 'N' and 'n'.

The first box contains 'N' identical non interacting particles in a volume V. The second box contains 'n' non interacting particles. The third box is the result of mixing of these two boxes.

Note that the particles are non interacting and the volumes of all the boxes are identical. The total energy which is the just the kinetic energy is conserved.

The change in the entropy for such a process is zero from either statistical or thermodynamical calculations.

The SMI of the first box is:

If we assume that there are M cells in volume V then the number of configurations are M^N(if the particles are distinguishable) and if the particles are indistinguishable then the no. of configurations are M^N / N!

hence, SMI ( 1 ) = log M^N / N!

similarly, SMI ( 2 ) = log M^n / n!

and , SMI ( 3 ) = log M^( N+n ) (distinguishable particles are present)

now Δ SMI =SMI(3) - ( SM1( 1 ) + SMI( 2 ) ) = log M^( N+n ) - log M^( N+n ) / N! n! = log N! n!

And therefore ΔS = K ln 2 (ΔSMI) which turns out to be not zero.

Why is there a discrepancy?. Is there some conceptual mistake in the SMI calculation.

In the book, the author explains that the change in SMI is zero since there is no change in volume or energy and hence the locational SMI change and the momenta SMI change are zero...please help.
 
Science news on Phys.org
blackdranzer said:
The change in the entropy for such a process is zero from either statistical or thermodynamical calculations
If, by 'process', you mean the mixing, then: no.
 
BvU said:
If, by 'process', you mean the mixing, then: no.

as long as the volume of the box after mixing remains the same and for an ideal gas, the change in entropy is zero. But, if the volume of the third box is larger then ofcourse, entropy increases...

note: Referred from "Entropy and the second law, interpretations and mis-interpretations " Ariah Ben Naim (2013) pg. no. 144
 
blackdranzer said:
The change in the entropy for such a process is zero
So: what is the 'process' ?
 
"SMI ( 3 ) = log M^( N+n ) (distinguishable particles are present)"
This is not correct. The particles are not all distinguishable from each other. The Ns are indistinguishable from each other , and so are the ns, but the Ns are distinguishable from the ns. The correct expression is log M^(N+n)/N!n! (as distinct from log M^(N+n)/(N+n)!, which is what it would be if all the particles were indistinguishable).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: BvU

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
7K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K