Example Problem Involving Forces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving forces, specifically the mechanics of a person applying force to a rope tied to a boulder and a car stuck in the mud. Participants seek to understand the conceptual reasoning behind the ability to magnify force through this setup, contrasting mathematical explanations with conceptual insights.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the explanation provided in their textbook regarding the magnification of force when pushing on the rope, seeking a conceptual understanding rather than a mathematical one.
  • Another participant suggests that the concept of work is more important than force, drawing parallels to levers and pulleys, and mentions the geometric relationship involved when applying force at an angle.
  • A different participant expresses a lack of familiarity with pulleys and levers, indicating that they have not yet learned about the concept of work, and reiterates their desire for a conceptual explanation of the problem.
  • One participant introduces a mathematical approach, discussing how the force exerted can be resolved into components and how the angle affects the resultant force, suggesting that a greater angle leads to a larger resultant force.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the tension in the rope, rather than the person directly, is what pulls the car, highlighting the role of the boulder in increasing tension and thus the effectiveness of the force applied.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts of work, levers, and the mechanics of the problem. There is no consensus on a singular explanation, and multiple perspectives on the conceptual and mathematical aspects remain present.

Contextual Notes

Some participants indicate limitations in their understanding of foundational concepts such as work, pulleys, and levers, which may affect their ability to fully engage with the problem. The discussion includes both qualitative and quantitative approaches, but the relationship between the concepts remains unresolved.

Bashyboy
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I am reading in my textbook an example problem. In this problem, there is a rope tied to a boulder on one end, and on the other it is tied to a car stuck in the mud. A person then applies a force at the midpoint of the rope. I was wondering if someone could explain to me why the "person pushing on the rope was able to magnify their effort almost six times using this technique"? I ask, because the author didn't do an actual good job at explaining the physics behind this technique, but rather employed themselves in explaining the mathematics--which is the part I don't really have any trouble with. I was just wondering if someone could explain this technique from a conceptual standpoint.
 
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Hi Bashyboy! :smile:

It's because what is important is not force, but work

you're probably familiar with levers and pulleys, where you move your end, say six metres, but the other end moves only one metre …

look at the geometry here … when the angle is θ, you move the middle of the rope, and the end moves tanθ as far, exactly like a lever :wink:
 
Actually, I don't really know how pulleys and levers work, and I have not learned about the concept of work yet. I uploaded a screen shot of the problem. Its from a chapter bout Dynamics. To me, the way they explain the example is almost entirely mathematical. I was just wondering if there was a conceptual way of explaining the problem, especially why the person in the problem was able to magnify their force almost by six times by using this technique.
 

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You can replace(resolve) a force with equivalent sum of forces.
Here the force exerted by the girl can be replaced by 2 forces at an angle of (90-5)°.

If we add the 2 forces, the resultant should be the same as applied by the girl which 300N vertically.

Let the value=x
xCos(90-θ)+xCos(90-θ)=y
2Sinθ=y
2xSin5°=300N
x=1721N

Evaluation.
It depends on the angle. Greater the angle the more resultant force.
 
Last edited:
Bashyboy said:
Actually, I don't really know how pulleys and levers work, and I have not learned about the concept of work yet. I uploaded a screen shot of the problem. Its from a chapter bout Dynamics. To me, the way they explain the example is almost entirely mathematical. I was just wondering if there was a conceptual way of explaining the problem, especially why the person in the problem was able to magnify their force almost by six times by using this technique.

On a very qualitative level, what is pulling on the car is not the person, but the tension in the rope. Now, if the person just pulls horizontally with some force on the rope, that force is just transmitted to the car via the tension in the rope. The cleverness of tying the rope to the boulder is that the rock exerts a force on the rope, increasing its tension (whereas without the rock, only the person is contributing to any forces on the car).
 

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