Exclusion principle

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ZapperZ
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jackle said:
I've come into the arguement a bit late here but, on this scale couldn't you consider your electrons to be in a gravitational potential well in addition to an atomic potential well?

This leads me on to think that no two particles will be in the same state due to minor differences in other types of potential unless they are in the same atom.
There are two points against your argument:

1. There hasn't been any gravitational effects that has been observed in atomic, molecular, and solid state structures. Gravity, when compared to the electrostatic potential, is so exceedingly weak, that in those areas of study, it is never taken into account as far as I am aware of. There hasn't been any crystal structure grown in zero-g environment that cannot be grown here on earth.

2. If gravitational potential does really come into play, then H2 molecule on earth would behave in a different manner than H2 molecules in space, on another celestial body, etc, whenever the gravitational potential is different. Have you heard of any such observation or correction to any of our celestial observation?

Zz.
 
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I was thinking more along the lines of your original situation where 3 H atoms were on different planets. In this case gravitational effects are observed in the form of the entire structure having a different weight, including the electrons inside. This indeed may make no difference to the types of structures possible...at least not until you have enough gravity for a neutron star!

So I am suggesting that if the atoms are in different states and the atoms are made of particles, the particles themselves are in a different state. The exclusion principle doesn't apply.
 
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jackle said:
I was thinking more along the lines of your original situation where 3 H atoms were on different planets. In this case gravitational effects are observed in the form of the entire structure having a different weight, including the electrons inside. This indeed may make no difference to the types of structures possible...at least not until you have enough gravity for a neutron star!

So I am suggesting that if the atoms are in different states and the atoms are made of particles, the particles themselves are in a different state. The exclusion principle doesn't apply.
Well, I think my 3 H atoms example were meant to convey the sense of distance, rather than different gravitational field. So maybe we can replace those celestial bodies with the equivalent locations in space, so that no gravitational field will come into this scenario.

Zz.
 
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That was where I introduced my radical notion that perhaps gravity or some other force always comes into any scenario that is real, just in unbelievably small doses.

I haven't been able to convince myself of that yet though.

The actual problem I have with that thought is that forces seem to be "fermions playing catch with bosons". In between throws, wouldn't all the H atoms be identical?

I do like to blow my own ideas up sometimes...
 
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Hi, guys,

Sorry about my cut in here. I am not as knowledgeable as you people here. My recent readings just brought me to a guess of what we said about "Fermions can not occupy the same energy levels" seems to mean that Fermions' degenracies ( that basically means that two different pure states can have the same eigenvalue for Hamiltonian after a symmetric operation ) were broken down by the presence of double or multiple well potentials.

Does "distingushiable" or " indistinguishable" states or particles stem from the same consideration? It seems to stem from a more advanced theory in the understandings of super low temporature.

Thanks & Regards
 

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