Explore the Nature of Spirit - Questions & Answers

[M. Gaspar]

What is "spirit" anyway? The animating force within (all?) living things? The central nature of a person?

What are its properties? Its proclivities? Its "powers"? Its "purpose"?

Is "spirit" real or imagined? Essential or extraneous? "Perfect" or "evolving"? Eternal or finite?

And where, in "science", does spirit "fit"?

In an attempt to define our terms -- for the sake of FUTURE threads -- can we sort out our notions regarding "spirit" or "soul"...and whether, in fact, the terms of interchangeable?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
What is "spirit" anyway? The animating force within (all?) living things? The central nature of a person?

What are its properties? Its proclivities? Its "powers"? Its "purpose"?

Is "spirit" real or imagined? Essential or extraneous? "Perfect" or "evolving"? Eternal or finite?

And where, in "science", does spirit "fit"?

In an attempt to define our terms -- for the sake of FUTURE threads -- can we sort out our notions regarding "spirit" or "soul"...and whether, in fact, the terms of interchangeable?

I don't know, I don't seem to have "the spirit" to answer right now. Hey, maybe that's a clue ... something to do with motivation or, energy level? Then again maybe we can lift "our spirits" by reaching for the ones in the bottle? Ha ha!

How about the ebb and flow of consciuouness regarding our thoughts and feelings? That sounds kind of "spiritual" now doesn't it? Actually that's about as close to a bona fide answer as I think you're going to get. Will have to get back to you on this ...

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I don't know, I don't seem to have "the spirit" to answer right now. Hey, maybe that's a clue ... something to do with motivation or, energy level? Then again maybe we can lift "our spirits" by reaching for the ones in the bottle? Ha ha!

Hey, it's 7:45 AM on a SUNDAY, yet! a bottle is out of the question..especially at a Quaker Meeting!

How about the ebb and flow of consciuouness regarding our thoughts and feelings? That sounds kind of "spiritual" now doesn't it? Actually that's about as close to a bona fide answer as I think you're going to get. Will have to get back to you on this ...

Yes, please do, as I'd like to get something "solid" on the "etherial".

For instance, do "spirits" have "thoughts and feelings" as you seem to suggest?

Le'ts attempt to "pin it down".

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
What is "spirit" anyway? The animating force within (all?) living things? The central nature of a person?

Yes. Does essence return to essence? If so, then it's the beginning and the end (i.e., continuum?), all wrapped up at once ... that which always was and that which always will be.

While I understand the spiritual realm is all about what makes us tick on the inside, the "inner reality," which those on the outside, even ourselves, are unaware of. It's all about the psychological forces, what we once called gods -- e.g., "psyche" and hence "soul," from which we derive "psychology," were borrowed from the Greek Myths -- which come together in composite, to form the structure of human nature. So we have to understand the gods were very real in that sense. Look up any psychological term, and chaces are it was borrowed from the Greek Myths.

As for our "soul," that's like a drop of water in the bucket, where the spiritual realm is the water within the bucket. And yet the soul remains within its form (us), and does not become extracted and returned to the bucket until after we die. And yes, in order for these psychological forces to exist, and maintain influx into our very being (soul), that implies that there is an afterlife, as these forces don't just emanate from "nothing."

Does science stand to gain by any of this? It all depends, on "which reality" they wish to define.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Yes, please do, as I'd like to get something "solid" on the "etherial".

For instance, do "spirits" have "thoughts and feelings" as you seem to suggest?

Enter the dream realm ...

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Who are we and what are we in relationship to that which we dream about? I know for me there's always some sort of interaction going on, and it's hard to believe it's merely a by-product of some electro-chemical process going on in the brain. What are these other so-called "enitities" experiencing when they experience me? It's like I had always been there, and yet separate, as if I were a separate entity. Which, is pretty much the way I experience them.

And yet there are times when I become more concsious in this state and I say, "By the way, I haven't died yet." And they all look at me with puzzled faces and say, "What do mean? It's always been this way. This is it man (reality)." And it's about this time that I begin to wake up, and realize that I'm laying in bed, and there they are still looking at me! And I say, "Hey, I tried to explain it you!" Soon after they would all depart and I would go back to my being unaware of them.

Actually it's this kind of "lucid dreaming" state that I believe would account for what people term "alien abduction," for which reason I think the idea of abduction is very unlikely.

Now as for a "spiritual encounter," that would be another story. For if in indeed our dreams were like a portal to another dimension, then it would be much easier to explain the existence of God, than that of extraterrestrial existence.

The main difference between our dreams and our waking state is that our dreams are more "fluid" and transitional. In which case they often don't make a lot of sense. And yet it is possible to become acclimatized to this state, as you begin to "wake up" in your dreams. By which you may very well discover that a "spiritual reality" does exist.

 

[Royce]

The following is of course only my opinion and belief. I offer it only as a point of view for discussion. I have no proof nor even references to fall back on. Take it in that spirit only. It is not a proclamation nor edict. Some of this come from the thread "The Trinity of Man and God."
The spirit of Man is created and bestowed upon us at an early age when we first show the signs of having wisdom and thus being human.
It is of God, a part of God, the Holy Spirit, that returns to God upon our death. Its purpose is to lead, guide and teach us, a mentor if you will. I have heard it referred to as a thought adjuster. Adjusting our thoughts and thus knowledge and behavior to a more loving, good, godly nature. One of it's more important purposes is to love us and thus teach us to love. Another is to teach us to know ourselves and to know God. It is apart of us yet a different aspect from our body and soul.
The body, including the brain is the physical evolved part of us that is of the Earth and will remain of the Earth after 'death'.
The soul is the nonphysical evolved mind, heart, character, personallity, individual us that upon the death of our body goes on to the next more spiritual world. Freud may have been referring to the soul when he talked about the super ego. It is our spiritual self, our essence that is us, that makes us, us individuals. It's purpose is the grow, experience life and love and to come to know itself and it's God. One of it's hardest and main jobs during our life is to allow our egos to develope and become strong so that we become individuals with strength and character of our own and yet not let our ego,s become so strong that they rule our lifes to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. We must not supress or repress our egos but integrate it with our souls and all that we are. This way we can become one within ourselves and one with God. We will then be all that we can be and are meant to be in this life on earth. This may be comparable to Buddhist's enlightenment or Christianity's state of grace or sainthood.
Agian this is only my personal set of beliefs presented only as my view point for your concideration and discussion.

 

[sage]

spirit is imagined. it does not exist. it does not fit in science.

 

[Royce]

originally poste by sage:
"spirit is imagined. it does not exist. it does not fit in science."


You, sage, are imagined. You do not exist. You do not fit reality.
The above is just as valid as your previous unsupported statement.
Both are meaningless.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by sage
spirit is imagined. it does not exist. it does not fit in science.

And yet there are many scientists who believe otherwise.

 

[Zero]

The point sage makes, I think, is that 'spirit' is something that is undefinable, and therefore has no place in a scientific discussion. I personally think that consciousness is a physical phenomenon which eminates from electrical impulses.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes. Does essence return to essence? If so, then it's the beginning and the end (i.e., continuum?), all wrapped up at once ... that which always was and that which always will be.

Essence may return to essence...but the question is what that "essence" may be. Perhaps there is a "spiritual" component to the Universe...or maybe "simple" "consciousness" is all there is. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

As to my use of the word "continuum"...I am NOT referring to the passage of TIME: I'm referring the a "spectrum" of sorts, from rudimentary consciousness (say, the self-awareness of an elementary particle) though to highy COMPLEXT consciousness (like us...or the Universe Itself).

While I understand the spiritual realm is all about what makes us tick on the inside, the "inner reality," which those on the outside, even ourselves, are unaware of. It's all about the psychological forces, what we once called gods -- e.g., "psyche" and hence "soul," from which we derive "psychology," were borrowed from the Greek Myths -- which come together in composite, to form the structure of human nature. So we have to understand the gods were very real in that sense. Look up any psychological term, and chaces are it was borrowed from the Greek Myths.

So are you saying that "spirit" is a "coherent system" on SOME "plane"? Does it think? Does it feel? Does it communicate? Let's get down to the nitty-gritty, shall we?

[/QUOTE]As for our "soul," that's like a drop of water in the bucket, where the spiritual realm is the water within the bucket. And yet the soul remains within its form (us), and does not become extracted and returned to the bucket until after we die. And yes, in order for these psychological forces to exist, and maintain influx into our very being (soul), that implies that there is an afterlife, as these forces don't just emanate from "nothing."[/QUOTE]
If there is a "soul" then I think it might not just be "confined" to our "bodies". It would be an "entity" with a "higher PERSPECTIVE" of which only one FACET of its ATTENTION is on our little lives.

Does science stand to gain by any of this? It all depends, on "which reality" they wish to define.

Science seems to only "wish to define" that which "it" can DETECT, MEASURE and TEST. This is why even CONSCIOUSNESS is not worth considering by many...even tho it is a definite PART of the Universe and so must be INCLUDED (one would think) in any cosmological theory. And yet, no.

Still, the quest for the Unified Field Theory seems to have a "spiritual" inference...which, again, is NOT to say that "spirit" is "real".

I'll admit: I'm confused .

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Royce
The following is of course only my opinion and belief. I offer it only as a point of view for discussion. I have no proof nor even references to fall back on. Take it in that spirit only. It is not a proclamation nor edict. Some of this come from the thread "The Trinity of Man and God."
The spirit of Man is created and bestowed upon us at an early age when we first show the signs of having wisdom and thus being human.
It is of God, a part of God, the Holy Spirit, that returns to God upon our death. Its purpose is to lead, guide and teach us, a mentor if you will. I have heard it referred to as a thought adjuster. Adjusting our thoughts and thus knowledge and behavior to a more loving, good, godly nature. One of it's more important purposes is to love us and thus teach us to love. Another is to teach us to know ourselves and to know God. It is apart of us yet a different aspect from our body and soul.
The body, including the brain is the physical evolved part of us that is of the Earth and will remain of the Earth after 'death'.
The soul is the nonphysical evolved mind, heart, character, personallity, individual us that upon the death of our body goes on to the next more spiritual world. Freud may have been referring to the soul when he talked about the super ego. It is our spiritual self, our essence that is us, that makes us, us individuals. It's purpose is the grow, experience life and love and to come to know itself and it's God. One of it's hardest and main jobs during our life is to allow our egos to develope and become strong so that we become individuals with strength and character of our own and yet not let our ego,s become so strong that they rule our lifes to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. We must not supress or repress our egos but integrate it with our souls and all that we are. This way we can become one within ourselves and one with God. We will then be all that we can be and are meant to be in this life on earth. This may be comparable to Buddhist's enlightenment or Christianity's state of grace or sainthood.
Agian this is only my personal set of beliefs presented only as my view point for your concideration and discussion.

I want to respond to you...but I seem to be all "thunk out"!

Gonna have to let it ride until I regroup.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by sage
spirit is imagined. it does not exist. it does not fit in science.

Whether or not I agree with the first two statements is irrelevant, but I do want to post my agreement with the last statement. Science really doesn't have any room for spirits.

But, then again, this is the Philosophy Forum, and Philosophy has plenty of room.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Essence may return to essence...but the question is what that "essence" may be. Perhaps there is a "spiritual" component to the Universe...or maybe "simple" "consciousness" is all there is. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I happen to think spirit and consciousness are pretty much one and the same, all of which emanate from the "Greater Mind."

As to my use of the word "continuum"...I am NOT referring to the passage of TIME: I'm referring the a "spectrum" of sorts, from rudimentary consciousness (say, the self-awareness of an elementary particle) though to highy COMPLEXT consciousness (like us...or the Universe Itself).

You ever get the sense that you have always been here, and that in some sense you were never meant to die? And yet the spirit lives on unto Eternity.

So are you saying that "spirit" is a "coherent system" on SOME "plane"? Does it think? Does it feel? Does it communicate?
Let's get down to the nitty-gritty, shall we?

Yes, the "spiritual realm" is the interior or "essence" of which the "material realm" is the exterior or "form." While in many ways it's much like existence on this earthly plane, and yet much more, because it's not bound by time and space.

If there is a "soul" then I think it might not just be "confined" to our "bodies". It would be an "entity" with a "higher PERSPECTIVE" of which only one FACET of its ATTENTION is on our little lives.

Well so long as we remain in our bodies, yes. But when we pass on we discover there are literally no bounds as to how high a spirit can soar if, in fact that's what the spirit so chooses. And while I'm sure there are bounds, it would be like making the comparison between a caterpillar and a butterfly ... Wow!

Science seems to only "wish to define" that which "it" can DETECT, MEASURE and TEST. This is why even CONSCIOUSNESS is not worth considering by many...even tho it is a definite PART of the Universe and so must be INCLUDED (one would think) in any cosmological theory. And yet, no.

What a joke! I just can't figure out whether it's God that's playing the joke or whether it's Science?

Still, the quest for the Unified Field Theory seems to have a "spiritual" inference...which, again, is NOT to say that "spirit" is "real".

Nahh, it's like I said before, the only spirits around here are in bottles! Ha ha!

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by sage
spirit is imagined. it does not exist. it does not fit in science.

i, unlike Mentat, am willing to agree with all these statements. the idea of 'spirits' is an out-dated concept from an age where in order to understand the mysical, people would have to assign spirits and gods to objects. we are past this. we no longer need mystic spirits and magic to explain what's going on, the modern scientific process takes care of that.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by maximus
i, unlike Mentat, am willing to agree with all these statements. the idea of 'spirits' is an out-dated concept from an age where in order to understand the mysical, people would have to assign spirits and gods to objects. we are past this. we no longer need mystic spirits and magic to explain what's going on, the modern scientific process takes care of that.

The only reason I won't state my personal opinion of this (or most other) subjects, is that I don't want it held against me later. I am constantly in flux, and I like to play devil's advocate, so I don't want someone saying, "but you said you didn't believe in spirits", when I start arguing in favor of them (or vice versa).

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Royce
The following is of course only my opinion and belief. I offer it only as a point of view for discussion. I have no proof nor even references to fall back on. Take it in that spirit only. It is not a proclamation nor edict. Some of this come from the thread "The Trinity of Man and God."
The spirit of Man is created and bestowed upon us at an early age when we first show the signs of having wisdom and thus being human.

I don't think this is how it happened. I think "human consciousness" ASSEMBLED from the "raw material" of consciousness...as a natural PROCESS of the Universe.

It is of God, a part of God, the Holy Spirit, that returns to God upon our death. Its purpose is to lead, guide and teach us, a mentor if you will. I have heard it referred to as a thought adjuster. Adjusting our thoughts and thus knowledge and behavior to a more loving, good, godly nature. One of it's more important purposes is to love us and thus teach us to love. Another is to teach us to know ourselves and to know God. It is apart of us yet a different aspect from our body and soul.

Yes, I know this is a popular conception...that "God is love" etc., etc. The problem (for me) is that I'm not so sure about the existence of "God"...while I AM pretty sure about the existence of the Universe. And, even IF there is a "spiritual component" to the Universe, it would include EVERYTHING that is: not JUST "love" but "hate", too; not just "Good" but "Evil".

The question of this thread is "What is the Nature of Spirit" If, indeed, Spirit EXISTS. Perhaps it's an unanswerable question...but what ELSE do we have to do?

The body, including the brain is the physical evolved part of us that is of the Earth and will remain of the Earth after 'death'.
The soul is the nonphysical evolved mind, heart, character, personallity, individual us that upon the death of our body goes on to the next more spiritual world. Freud may have been referring to the soul when he talked about the super ego. It is our spiritual self, our essence that is us, that makes us, us individuals. It's purpose is the grow, experience life and love and to come to know itself and it's God. One of it's hardest and main jobs during our life is to allow our egos to develope and become strong so that we become individuals with strength and character of our own and yet not let our ego,s become so strong that they rule our lifes to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. We must not supress or repress our egos but integrate it with our souls and all that we are. This way we can become one within ourselves and one with God. We will then be all that we can be and are meant to be in this life on earth. This may be comparable to Buddhist's enlightenment or Christianity's state of grace or sainthood.

Well, I'd have to agree that -- if one is willing to CONCEDE that there is Spirit -- that Spirit would be in the process of EVOLVING! And, it would do so via the experiences -- and lessons learned via the CONSEQUENCES of our ACTIONS -- over many lifetimes!

Agian this is only my personal set of beliefs presented only as my view point for your concideration and discussion.

Your humility is noted. Mine is absent. My ego seems to be running the show at the moment.

 

[Mentat]

M.Gaspar,
When I posted that it is not scientifically provable, I was pointing at the (more important) fact that "spirit" definitely does, and definitely does not exist.

It's like objective reality. Objective reality definitely does exist in a scientific framework, but definitely doesn't in a solipsistic framework.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
i, unlike Mentat, am willing to agree with all these statements. the idea of 'spirits' is an out-dated concept from an age where in order to understand the mysical, people would have to assign spirits and gods to objects. we are past this. we no longer need mystic spirits and magic to explain what's going on, the modern scientific process takes care of that.

I can see how this might account for "science" not being interested in the nature and evolution of SPIRIT...but I wonder why CONSCIOUSNESS is left out of the mix?

But this would be another thread.

I have to tell you, with regard to "spirit", the "jury is still out" for me. But it seems a worthwhile area of inquiry...especially because the concept comes up -- independently -- in most cultures and through time. Might there be an "inner knowing" at work...or, as you say, an attempt for primitive minds to "explain" they don't understand.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
The only reason I won't state my personal opinion of this (or most other) subjects, is that I don't want it held against me later. I am constantly in flux, and I like to play devil's advocate, so I don't want someone saying, "but you said you didn't believe in spirits", when I start arguing in favor of them (or vice versa).

Good policy. Good strategy.

But how does one test their assumptions without stating opinions?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
I can see how this might account for "science" not being interested in the nature and evolution of SPIRIT...but I wonder why CONSCIOUSNESS is left out of the mix?

But this would be another thread.

I have to tell you, with regard to "spirit", the "jury is still out" for me. But it seems a worthwhile area of inquiry...especially because the concept comes up -- independently -- in most cultures and through time. Might there be an "inner knowing" at work...or, as you say, an attempt for primitive minds to "explain" they don't understand.

what i have always wondered is why someone feels they need to create this force in the universe. does it make us feel more comfortable? more safe and not as hopelessly alone? it is pretty indisputable that there is no physical evidence that would support such a claim. and yes, I've heard all the bullsh**: how else do you describe this feeling of love that i feel? or: look at the universe and you will see all the proof that you need. it's all misleading jargan hid behing the beautiful words that we all so dearly want to hear.

 

[Mentat]

Here's something to think about, if spirits exist, can they interact with the physical world? Are they physical themselves?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar

But how does one test their assumptions without stating opinions?

a good point. we're not in this for a political battle, but to expand our knowledge and test our assumptions.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
M.Gaspar,
When I posted that it is not scientifically provable, I was pointing at the (more important) fact that "spirit" definitely does, and definitely does not exist.

It's like objective reality. Objective reality definitely does exist in a scientific framework, but definitely doesn't in a solipsistic framework.

Do you see what I mean?

If I were a Solipsist, I wouldn't care what you mean!

But as a Conversationalist, I do (care...and see)!

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
what i have always wondered is why someone feels they need to create this force in the universe. does it make us feel more comfortable? more safe and not as hopelessly alone? it is pretty indisputable that there is no physical evidence that would support such a claim. and yes, I've heard all the bullsh**: how else do you describe this feeling of love that i feel? or: look at the universe and you will see all the proof that you need. it's all misleading jargan hid behing the beautiful words that we all so dearly want to hear.

God, what a cynic . Are you prepared to burn in Hell?

Did you come to this thread to shoot us down...or explore a possibility?

Ya know, for a very long time there was no "physical evidence" of atoms or electromagnetism...and I don't think we've "seen" black holes or superstrings! This "evidence" thing is WAY OVERPLAYED!

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
I can see how this might account for "science" not being interested in the nature and evolution of SPIRIT...but I wonder why CONSCIOUSNESS is left out of the mix?

But this would be another thread.

I have to tell you, with regard to "spirit", the "jury is still out" for me. But it seems a worthwhile area of inquiry...especially because the concept comes up -- independently -- in most cultures and through time. Might there be an "inner knowing" at work...or, as you say, an attempt for primitive minds to "explain" they don't understand.

How can we inquire about anything if it were not for the fact that we were conscious? For without it, where would the scientific endeavor be? If anything, this should be the first and fundamental question science should ask, "Why am I conscious?" If they can't answer that, then everything else becomes meaningless ... or, at the very most, extraneous.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
God, what a cynic . Are you prepared to burn in Hell?

ha! i hope you're joking about the hell thing! but it wouldn't bother me if you weren't.

Did you come to this thread to shoot us down...or explore a possibility?

Ya know, for a very long time there was no "physical evidence" of atoms or electromagnetism...and I don't think we've "seen" black holes or superstrings! This "evidence" thing is WAY OVERPLAYED! [/B]

point taken, but i feel sort of confident in this area.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Here's something to think about, if spirits exist, can they interact with the physical world? Are they physical themselves?

Actually, there is a distinction (in MY mind) about "spirit" and "spirits". The former (to me) is a POSSIBLE coherent system of SOMETHING that has a will, self-awareness, and an "imbedded" "need" to evolve. It (spirit) would be "hooked up" to EVERYTHING ELSE...while focusing a FACET of its ATTENTION on the life it is living (at any given moment) through us.

"Spirits" (in my mind) are "ghosts"...which may or may not exist also...but, if they do, they are NOT the FULL or COMPLETE or TOTALITY of the "coherent system" that I'm thinking of when I say "spirit". Spirits might be reflections of a portion of the totality of a disembodied SPIRIT.

This, of course, is PURE SPECULATION -- or PURE B.S.! Take your pick.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
ha! i hope you're joking about the hell thing! but it wouldn't bother me if you weren't.

Say that again when you're lookin' for ICE WATER!

point taken, but i feel sort of confident in this area. [/B]

Yeh...we all do...sorta.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
How can we inquire about anything if it were not for the fact that we were conscious? For without it, where would the scientific endeavor be? If anything, this should be the first and fundamental question science should ask, "Why am I conscious?" If they can't answer that, then everything else becomes meaningless ... or, at the very most, extraneous.

Yes, that's how I feel about the irony of cosmologist ignoring consciousness even as they USE it.

But what of "spirit"? How do we "use" spirit? Or, how does "spirit" use us ?

It is simply not as "evident" as consciousness, and could, in fact, be an expendable "construct" as many suggest.

I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Here's something to think about, if spirits exist, can they interact with the physical world? Are they physical themselves?

Well, lots of people claim to be spiritual mediums, but that you pretty much have to take with a grain of salt. It's not so much of matter of whether it's plausible or not (to me), but who are you going to trust? As far as spirits being physical or not? No. But they do have and enjoy a sense of "physicality" amongst themselves. They also at times are able to effect things directly on the physical plane, although typically it involves that which is unstable and "about to give."

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Well, lots of people claim to be spiritual mediums, but that you pretty much have to take with a grain of salt. It's not so much of matter of whether it's plausible or not (to me), but who are you going to trust? As far as spirits being physical or not? No. But they do have and enjoy a sense of "physicality" amongst themselves. They also at times are able to effect things directly on the physical plane, although typically it involves that which is unstable and "about to give."

If "spirit" exists...it would be -- IMO -- a "substance" (as I propose consciousness is ...and would exist in everything -- again, like consciousness.

If "spirit" does NOT exist..."spirituality" still does, which would be a seeking of high ideals and the strength to live them.

Although occasionally fun to consider, "spirits" do not interest me much because they would only be "dead people"...and most people, dead or alive, don't interest me much.

Well, I started my day talking to you Iacchus, so it seems well and good to be ending it likewise. I can only hope we still have some unanswered questions left to ponder in the morrow.

Goodnight. [zz)]

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
But what of "spirit"? How do we "use" spirit? Or, how does "spirit" use us ?

It is simply not as "evident" as consciousness, and could, in fact, be an expendable "construct" as many suggest.

I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't have a soul if I wasn't conscious (i.e., that which acknowledges it's alive), which is why I pretty much view it as one and the same. Whereas when I go on my little escapades in my dreams/spiritual world, it's always that part of me, which is conscious, that does the interacting.

 

[maximus]

"I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit." -M. Gasper


now, i don't mean to be annoying here, but why do you feel this way? obviously some part of you wants this to be true, maybe regardless of how you feel about it. after a only a few minutes of researching you, i get the impression that you are truly wanting to resovle something in this question. most of your posts are in universal conciousness type threads. do you consider yourself religious?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
"I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit." -M. Gasper


now, i don't mean to be annoying here, but why do you feel this way? obviously some part of you wants this to be true, maybe regardless of how you feel about it. after a only a few minutes of researching you, i get the impression that you are truly wanting to resovle something in this question. most of your posts are in universal conciousness type threads. do you consider yourself religious?

No. I consider myself "spiritual"...which, to me, is seeking the "highest" way of being in the world...then generating the personal strength to live these ideals.

Actually, I do not have a burning need to "resolve" anything. I have no problem being in an INQUIRY over the course of a lifetime (or two...or more).

But, you've "nailed" me on one thing: I'm more interested in CONSCIOUSNESS than "spirit". Don't know why.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
But, you've "nailed" me on one thing: I'm more interested in CONSCIOUSNESS than "spirit". Don't know why.

if you are really wanting to know my position on this subject read my post in A Conscious Universe?, that pretty much summerizes my position, but you should know, i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by maximus
i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

evidence might not be the right word choice here. ...if you give me convincing logical reasoning... or illogical, whatever... the point is it'll be tough.

 

[sage]

consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.see details of an experiment in my reply to the thread IS CONSCIOUSNESS DEFINED IN SCIENCE?

 

[Royce]

To expand on my previous post, despite any objections or denials, in a more cosmological note as implied by other post in this thread I submit the following. This is again my belief and opinion though I am not the only one that believes as I do.
The aspect of God that is the Holy spirit pervades the universe and is a part of it. It is in my opinion the source of the life force that is so strong and everywhere at least here on Earth as there is vertually no where on Earth that life is not abundant and prolific even thousands of feet down in the rocks. I also think of it as the guiding force that insures that the universe behaves. Possibly it is the source of universal consciousness that we talked about in the thread "Conscious Universe". It is IMO the thing that ties us and the universe all together and is at lest in my mind the One that the asian religions speak of. It is of course immaterial and outside of time. It is ubiquitous. Has force and can and does interact with the material universe. In my mind at least it is the unifying force that make it all happen and keeps it working the way that it is meant to.

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by sage
consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.

that's pretty much exactly what i said.

 

[Iacchus32]

From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2764&perpage=15&pagenumber=2" ...

Origincally posted by Iacchus32

Origincally posted by sage
Our brain gains knowledge by (1)memorizing events and facts and emotions associated with them and makes decisions by(2) comparing new events or facts with previous ones. But some degree of ‘hardwiring’ is done from birth.

It's our "conscious mind" (not brain) which does the comparing and making decisions. This is like comparing the difference between how a car functions, "properly," and what it takes to actually drive the car, which are two separate matters. In fact this is the very problem that exists with science. They are so busy caught up with how something works, that they lose sight of its actual function, which is just another fancy means of taking things out of context.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Actually, there is a distinction (in MY mind) about "spirit" and "spirits". The former (to me) is a POSSIBLE coherent system of SOMETHING that has a will, self-awareness, and an "imbedded" "need" to evolve. It (spirit) would be "hooked up" to EVERYTHING ELSE...while focusing a FACET of its ATTENTION on the life it is living (at any given moment) through us.

"Spirits" (in my mind) are "ghosts"...which may or may not exist also...but, if they do, they are NOT the FULL or COMPLETE or TOTALITY of the "coherent system" that I'm thinking of when I say "spirit". Spirits might be reflections of a portion of the totality of a disembodied SPIRIT.

This, of course, is PURE SPECULATION -- or PURE B.S.! Take your pick.

Interesting enough, but the question remains, are they physical?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
As far as spirits being physical or not? No.

Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

It's an interesting distinction, and reminds me (somewhat) of Gaia theories - in that it separates the spirit of the All, with the spirits of coherent "chunks" of the All.

As for Casper's being a cartoon, that doesn't change the fact that they are trying to depict "ghosts", that can both be immaterial and material, and that's not scientifically feasible. So, the question remains, are spirits physical entities?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Might "spirit" (which I'm interest in) -- as well as "spirits (which I'm not) -- be "forces" as well?

I'm pretty sure that they (either) are "coherent systems" of SOMETHING. But what? That's the question...or one of them.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Actually, there is no such thing as "force" in the traditional sense - according to modern physics. It is really just curvatures of spacetime.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

Then again it may be just a matter of a slight shift in an energy field to "set something off."