Forward momentum of mass due to inertia

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    Inertia Mass Momentum
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of forward momentum of mass due to inertia in a rotating system involving rods and balls. Participants explore the implications of conservation of momentum and the effects of inertia on the movement of the axis as the balls interact with the rods during rotation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where balls are attached to rods rotating around an axis and questions whether the axis will jump upwards when the balls hit the ends of the rods due to inertia.
  • Another participant asserts that conservation of momentum suggests the axis will indeed move upwards, assuming no external forces act in the vertical direction.
  • A participant raises a concern about whether this scenario could be classified as a "reactionless drive," questioning the implications of the upward movement of the axis when the balls hit the rod ends.
  • Another participant counters that the axis's movement is dependent on the balls' motion, indicating that the axis moves downward when the balls move upwards and vice versa, thus negating the idea of a reactionless drive.
  • A later reply suggests that while the axis may initially jump upwards, the increased weight of the balls at the ends of the rods due to rotational inertia would require more force to pull them down, leading to a reaction that affects the axis's movement.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the upward movement of the axis constitutes a reactionless drive, with some agreeing on the mechanics of momentum conservation while others challenge the implications of the system's behavior.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the effects of rotational inertia and external forces, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the nature of these forces and their impact on the system's dynamics.

artis
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Help me understand a concept I came across by accident. So there is an axis (red) that is rotating with two rods attached to it (45 degrees from axis and 90 degrees with respect to one another) now if the balls at first are located closest to the red axis , as the axis begins to rotate the balls are dragged by inertia towards the ends of their rods, as they hit the ends of the rods they will transfer their momentum to the rods themselves, so there will be a push which will cancel out because there is an exact opposite action at the other side at the other rod, but since the rods are at 90 degrees , will there not be a force midway between them at 45 degrees which is the center of the red axis, so what I am asking is will the axis jump upwards as the balls hit the ends of the rods?
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Conservation of momentum in the vertical direction demands an answer of Yes, provided there are no components of externally applied forces in that direction to invalidate application of the conservation rule.

Note there must be some externally applied forces, otherwise we cannot have that 'the axis begins to rotate'. However we can assume that those forces have no components in the vertical direction.

Given that, the assembly has a positive upwards momentum, being that of the balls. When they hit the ends and either stick there or rebound, they lose upward momentum. To conserve momentum, the vertical rod and arms must begin to move upwards.
 
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@andrewkirk ok exactly that is what I thought too, so if this then is so , how come this is then not a "reactionless drive" ? because as the balls hit the rod endings the axis jumps, but if the balls are then dragged back down say by a electromagnet attached to the vertical red axis, then again the axis moves upward slightly , and as the balls hit the rod ends once more the axis again should move upwards ?
 
As the balls move upwards the axis moves downward. If the balls are moving downwards the axis moves upwards. When the balls stop moving up or down, so does the axis.

That's why it's not a reactionless drive. When you turn on your electromagnet you reverse the downward progress your axis made.
 
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I think I now understand @Ibix I think at first if you start with the balls close to red axis as you then start to spin the axis the balls hit the rod ends and at first the axis indeed jumps so for a brief moment it works like a reactionless drive but then now the balls are at the rod ends and since they are now at their furthest position from the axis due to rotational inertia they become much heavier than when they were close to axis, so now in order to pull them down with electromagnet attached to axis , the magnet would have to pull the weight equal not just to the balls but the ball weight + added weight due to rotational inertia, this added weight would make the pulling of the balls to exert a larger reaction on the magnet side attached to the axis so the axis would then be dragged back by the amount it jumped up in the first place
 

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