Frogs in Europe: The Decline of Amphibians

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The discussion centers on the alarming phenomenon of amphibians, specifically toads, in Europe experiencing unexplained explosions, particularly noted in Hamburg and Denmark. Scientists are puzzled, with potential causes ranging from an unknown virus or fungus to environmental factors. Observations indicate that these incidents occur at specific times, notably between 2-3 AM, suggesting a possible link to food sources or environmental changes. The conversation highlights the need for further research to determine whether the cause is intrinsic to the toads or external in their environment. There are concerns about the implications for amphibian populations, especially if this issue is linked to broader environmental changes or diseases affecting amphibians globally. The discussion also touches on the importance of understanding the ecological role of these creatures, as they serve as indicators of environmental health.
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They found out that America is better... :smile:
 
yomamma said:
They found out that America is better... :smile:

At which point they decided to commit suicide? :-p :-p
 
cepheid said:
At which point they decided to commit suicide? :-p :-p
They weren't allowed to leave the country...
 
stoned said:
what's going on with frogs in europe?
Jeez... you had me all worried until I read the link, but they're only toads. :rolleyes:
 
stoned said:
what's going on with frogs in europe? (I mean of course not French people but real amphibians)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4486247.stm
http://www.rense.com/general64/dcs.htm
There are problems with amphibians all around the world. I posted a thread on Dust-born agents, which is now in the biology section. I was wondering if research on topics such as this is being coordinated in any way. And whether this is linked to other problems that may be early signs of global warming.
 
How bizarre! Even stranger, they are reporting that it seems to happen at a specific time of day (2-3 AM). Whatever it is, it must be causing some massive and rapid buildup of either body fluids or gases to explode them with such force. With that precise of a timing, they should look at things like food sources that vary over the day (such as a fly that only swarms in the morning, or something that fluctuates with water currents during the day).

And I thought it was bad back in my high school biology class when we had two live frogs for a demo and the big one ate the little one and split at the side (talk about eyes that are bigger than your stomach!)

Poor frogs. :frown:
 
The claim that this is spreading is bothersome.
 
  • #10
I think we should first answer the question, "is the cause within the frog or its environment?"
 
  • #11
Moonbear said:
How bizarre! Even stranger, they are reporting that it seems to happen at a specific time of day (2-3 AM). Whatever it is, it must be causing some massive and rapid buildup of either body fluids or gases to explode them with such force. With that precise of a timing, they should look at things like food sources that vary over the day (such as a fly that only swarms in the morning, or something that fluctuates with water currents during the day).

And I thought it was bad back in my high school biology class when we had two live frogs for a demo and the big one ate the little one and split at the side (talk about eyes that are bigger than your stomach!)

Poor frogs. :frown:
Eeeeoooo!

The BBC article says:
Scientists are baffled. Possible explanations include a unknown virus or a fungus in the pond.
The topic is of interest to me because they are finding a similar problem with amphibians here in Arizona that is related to a virus in the soil/water. In the posted thread I mention the coral reef (sea fans) that have been dying because of fungus in the dust blown from Africa. The drought in Africa is the cause of the dust, which blows across the Atlantic. In Trinidad, where the coral reefs are dying, they are also linking the dust to a sudden and unusual increase in cases of asthma in children.
 
  • #12
There's no problem with amphibians here in arizona :confused:
 
  • #13
Arizona State University is researching this problem in areas of the Mogillion Rim. It is a virus in the environment, and if I understand correctly, it is easily absorbed into the skin of the frogs.
 
  • #14
yomamma said:
I think we should first answer the question, "is the cause within the frog or its environment?"

I've just been searching for more references (unfortunately, most sites are citing the same AP story, so there isn't much new to gather...a bit of a different story off the UK sites). They're testing the water and the frog bodies and not coming up with any viruses or bacteria. They're suggesting a fungus, but that's not making a lot of sense to me with the timing issue (I've come across several sites now that cite that this is restricted to the nighttime). You'd think a fungus would be consistently present and this would be happening all day long, not just the middle of the night. It must be something they are only exposed to during a short time of the day. The trouble is, is it an acute reaction within a few minutes to hours of exposure (something they get into when they come out of the water at night), or is it something that takes longer to reach this stage of reaction (something they are exposed to early in the morning or in the days previously)? They should be collecting frogs and examining stomach contents. If it's not in the water, and if they are reporting spread to other ponds, it may be carried by birds or insect-borne.

One story reported crows pecking at frogs, and that the numbers of crows have decreased since the frogs started exploding (as if the exploding frogs are somehow a defensive mechanism against crows) but that explanation doesn't make a lot of sense to me since the frogs aren't swelling when the crows would be active. But, what if the crows are less of a problem not because they've been frightened off by exploding frogs, but because they too are being affected by the disease, but in a less dramatic way? Or maybe they are just carriers and have migrated on to another pond?

I'd also want to know if they are swelling with gases or fluids. If it's fluids, I'm wondering if it's a weird frog allergy...I'm thinking of things like circadian timing of histamine production possibly coinciding with the time of frog explosions. Or maybe they aren't detecting bacterial contaminants because it's an overgrowth of bacteria normally present in their bodies triggered by something odd in the environment?
 
  • #15
SOS2008 said:
Arizona State University is researching this problem in areas of the Mogillion Rim. It is a virus in the environment, and if I understand correctly, it is easily absorbed into the skin of the frogs.

This is being reported as initially isolated to a single pond now with spread to a second pond. If toads were exploding all over the world, we'd be hearing about it already. I'm also wondering if this is a species-specific problem? Are any and all frogs/toads in the same pond afflicted with this problem, or is it just one species being affected? Darn, so many questions and so few answers!
 
  • #16
Moonbear said:
This is being reported as initially isolated to a single pond now with spread to a second pond. If toads were exploding all over the world, we'd be hearing about it already. I'm also wondering if this is a species-specific problem? Are any and all frogs/toads in the same pond afflicted with this problem, or is it just one species being affected? Darn, so many questions and so few answers!
The research being conducted at ASU regarding the decreasing number of amphibian species is due to Batrachochytrium Dendrobatidis, which I believe is a virus. The frogs are not exploding in this case. But as aired on PBS, amphibians are disappearing in many parts of the world, and as Ivan says, this is what is of concern.
 
  • #17
Moonbear said:
Darn, so many questions and so few answers!
Aw nuts, it looks like this is going to stay serious. Okay... as for the fluid vs gas question, the violence of the bursting would suggest gas to me. Since fluids are incompressible, they would more likely cause a splitting effect like that overfed one you mentioned. Gaseous overpressure would be more like a balloon popping.
Could the timing maybe have something to do with a photoactive chemical or organism that starts doing something when the sun goes down?

edit: That last bit wouldn't apply to something ingested, because it would be in the dark as soon as it was eaten.
 
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  • #18
Frogs are considered a kind of first alert environmental warning system. Apparently they are extremely sensitive to changes in the environment.
 
  • #19
Moonbear said:
With that precise of a timing, they should look at things like food sources that vary over the day (such as a fly that only swarms in the morning, or something that fluctuates with water currents during the day).
Moonbear, please clarify something for me regarding the above quote. These are toads that they're referring to, not frogs. Don't toads only go into water for breeding? Ours here, at least, are garden-dwellers. :confused:
 
  • #20
Danger said:
Moonbear, please clarify something for me regarding the above quote. These are toads that they're referring to, not frogs. Don't toads only go into water for breeding? Ours here, at least, are garden-dwellers. :confused:

Most sources are referring to them as toads, so they probably are land dwellers, but one (or more) of the articles I read mentioned the toads were exploding at night when they came out of the water, so I don't know if they are toads that hang out close to the water, or if they are in the middle of their breeding season. Oh, geez, you know, if they're supposed to be breeding now and are exploding instead, this could really decimate their population pretty quickly! Want to watch natural selection in action? Toads that don't explode get to pass their genes onto the next generation. :eek:

Toads are the dry, bumpy things and frogs are the moist, smooth-skinned things. We'll have to wait for DocToxyn to show up in the morning to get more info on frogs vs toads (he's the one who's into ectotherms, so he might know more about distinguishing features and whether toads are always land-dwelling or if some species would be in ponds outside of a breeding season).

Edit: As if exploding toads wasn't gross enough, while looking for more info, I came across a website showing the surgical extraction of a bot fly larva from the eyelid of a human. Apparently in South America there are bot flies that infect humans. Lots of other pictures there of bot fly infested people and animals.
 
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  • #21
Moonbear said:
Oh, geez, you know, if they're supposed to be breeding now and are exploding instead, this could really decimate their population pretty quickly!
Could this be the ultimate fast-acting STD? If so, we'd better hope it's incapable of cross-species infection. I don't want my turtle exposed to anything that can't be cleared up by penicillin. :eek:
 
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  • #22
Danger said:
Could this be the ultimate fast-acting STD? If so, we'd better hope it's incapable of cross-species infection. I don't want my turtle exposed to anything that can't be cleared up by penicillin. :eek:
So everything else that is treatable is okay for your turtle? We may need to have the humane society take possession. :-p
 
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  • #23
SOS2008 said:
So everything else that is treatable is okay for your turtle? We may need to have the human society take possession. :-p
It's survived a lot of situations that it shouldn't have. I don't know whether it's hyperimmune or just plain lucky.
 
  • #24
It just seem unnatural that s living organism would swell and explode...
 
  • #25
yomamma said:
It just seem unnatural that s living organism would swell and explode...
But not as mystifying as exploding without swelling...
 
  • #26
Danger said:
But not as mystifying as exploding without swelling...
didn't they swell?
 
  • #27
Danger, have you been licking toads again? Look at all the trouble you're causing.
 
  • #28
Huckleberry said:
Danger, have you been licking toads again? Look at all the trouble you're causing.
:confused: Maybe it had something to do with all that salt, but I mean, really... unsalted toads just make the tequila taste funny.
 
  • #29
Danger said:
:confused: Maybe it had something to do with all that salt, but I mean, really... unsalted toads just make the tequila taste funny.
What other spices have enterd your toad diet? :eek:
 
  • #30
I like my exploding frogs with fava beans and a nice chianti. :biggrin:
 
  • #31
It's not funny when you steal it...
 
  • #32
I wonder if temperature has anything to do with it? I would agree that it sounds more like gas build up. I can't find anything regarding how much time has passed from the onset of the swelling to the explosion.
I had a snake head that swelled up, something to do with ammonia.
 
  • #33
hypatia said:
I wonder if temperature has anything to do with it? I would agree that it sounds more like gas build up. I can't find anything regarding how much time has passed from the onset of the swelling to the explosion.
I had a snake head that swelled up, something to do with ammonia.

I think I found something last night that said it was a very short amount of time. Some witness described them as swelling up from normal to tennis-ball sized within minutes, then popping!

I also found something about tomato hornworms swelling up and exploding if you feed them cornmeal (they apparently can't digest that). I should add that to the trivia thread I suppose. :smile:
 
  • #34
in bible there is something about frogs and end of the world stuff.
maybe that is it for us guys ?
 
  • #35
Huckleberry said:
I like my exploding frogs with fava beans and a nice chianti. :biggrin:
Doesn't it all taste like chicken anyway? In which case, of course, the chianti would be good too. No, I'll just have the chianti by itself. :-p
 
  • #36
Now that I think about it, I've never had any of those things. For all I know, they could all taste like chicken.
 
  • #37
have they defined where the pops started, ventral side, dorsal side, anteior, etc.?
 
  • #38
Not in anything I've read yet. There was one picture that looks like the abdomen just split wide open.
 
  • #39
Is this happening to lat of frogs? And is it all in one area?
 
  • #40
yomamma said:
Is this happening to lat of frogs? And is it all in one area?

check original link in my first post. it is happening in Hamburg and now in few places in Denmark.from what I know and I lived in Hamburg water in that lake is very clean.
 
  • #41
yomamma said:
What other spices have enterd your toad diet? :eek:
I don't eat 'em; I just find that the secretion adds to the tequila kick. Why waste time by licking the toad, and then the salt off your hand, then doing the shot? Save a step and just pre-salt the toad. It's pure genius of efficiency. :biggrin:

Huckleberry said:
I like my exploding frogs with fava beans and a nice chianti. :biggrin:
It's a good thing that Hypatia explained that to me when she used it last month. I never saw the movie. :rolleyes:

yomamma said:
have they defined where the pops started, ventral side, dorsal side, anteior, etc.?
Or backside? This wouldn't be an epidemic of infectious constipation, would it?
 
  • #42
Danger said:
Or backside? This wouldn't be an epidemic of infectious constipation, would it?

Allrriigghht then! posterior... :rolleyes:
 
  • #43
Moonbear said:
Toads are the dry, bumpy things and frogs are the moist, smooth-skinned things. We'll have to wait for DocToxyn to show up in the morning to get more info on frogs vs toads (he's the one who's into ectotherms, so he might know more about distinguishing features and whether toads are always land-dwelling or if some species would be in ponds outside of a breeding season).

Wow, finally caught up to this thread (a neuroscience retreat on friday with a great talk by Pasko Rakic and the ensuing weekend slowed me down). So here's my thoughts.

In the articles I have seen they don't give a scientific name (damn lay press ), but most of the articles state "toads" and the one picture was surely a toad (although that could have been any stock photo). As far as the difference between toads and frogs, in general most frogs can't stand dry conditions as well as toads so they stay much closer to water sources than toads do. However toads do require water sources for reproduction just like their slimier cousins. Some of the prettiest anuran (frogs and toads) calls I have heard are from American toads, Bufo americana (see how easy it is!), calling from flooded grass fields and ponds. This reproductive strategy is practiced by the other members of the amphibian family such as salamanders and newts, also found mostly "on land" during most of their lives.

As far as the exploding issue, I agree with many of the points already raised in this thread. My thoughts would be to take some of the toads out of the pond and see if they continue to suffer these episodes in the laboratory under controlled conditions. Perhaps even chemically ovulate and fertilize, to look at developmental conditions which factor into the phenomena- feed back wild-caught food items, place reared frogs in water from affected sites, etc. It is a rather disturbing condition and hopefully will be understood quickly.
 
  • #44
Hopefully the legs don't go to waste. That's the best part of a frog.
 
  • #45
DocToxyn said:
Wow, finally caught up to this thread (a neuroscience retreat on friday with a great talk by Pasko Rakic and the ensuing weekend slowed me down).

Pasko gives great talks!

How dare they hold a retreat so close to the SFN abstract deadline! Don't they know everyone needs to spend every last waking moment (and possibly a good portion of their sleeping moments) in the lab getting the data together for their abstracts? :biggrin: Though, I somehow don't feel motivated to get an abstract into go to D.C. in November. What were they thinking? November meetings are supposed to be in warm places! Plus, my friends who lived near there just moved away, so I can't even go visit them while there.

Okay, back to toads...
Yes, I was thinking the same thing; take some of the live toads off to the lab and find out if removing them from the environment removes the problem, and then work backward from there.
 
  • #46
Moonbear said:
Pasko gives great talks!

Yes he does, quite entertaining.

Moonbear said:
Though, I somehow don't feel motivated to get an abstract into go to D.C. in November. What were they thinking? November meetings are supposed to be in warm places! Plus, my friends who lived near there just moved away, so I can't even go visit them while there.

Well I hope this doesn't push you out of submitting, but I doubt if I'll be there :frown: . The small amount of neurotox I have going (most of what I am currently doing is developmental/ligand/receptor work) is literally still in it infancy (the mice are still growing up!). There's not much of a chance of a solid abstract by the deadline. Perhaps next year.
 
  • #47
Linda Howe, a popular reporter and investigator of fringe news stories, is following up on this story. Sometimes I think she does a good job on this stuff. And, IMO, other times she goes right over the edge. Anyway, FYI.

http://www.earthfiles.com/
 
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  • #48
Ivan Seeking said:
Linda Howe, a popular reporter and investigator of fringe news stories, is following up on this story. Sometimes I think she does a good job on this stuff. And, IMO, other times she goes right over the edge. Anyway, FYI.

http://www.earthfiles.com/

Well, of course they aren't finding livers in the toads if they're looking between the shoulders, as she describes in the article. :confused: It may have been a while since I dissected a frog, but the location of the liver doesn't vary much from species to species, it's always nice and large, the first thing you see when you open up the abdominal cavity (and the first thing the students cut right through in their dissections). So, far from being on the dorsal side between the shoulders, it's on the ventral side. Getting to the liver from a dorsal approach would probably kill the toad quickly as you would have to go through every other major organ to get to it.
 
  • #49
This suggests that the toads can live without livers "birds attack toads eating their liver, the toads survive, wound closes, gases develop inside toads, making them swell until they burst". Are toads that different?
 
  • #50
Evo said:
This suggests that the toads can live without livers "birds attack toads eating their liver, the toads survive, wound closes, gases develop inside toads, making them swell until they burst". Are toads that different?

Not as far as I know. That whole last section is very confusing. The liver theory that Moonbear addresses is just weird. I thought perhaps the liver could be displaced to the dorsal position following the swelling, but it goes on to say that the liver removal precipitates the swelling, so no luck there. To Evo's point, how the removal of the liver, let alone any organ, can cause "blood vessels and lungs to burst" is beyond me. Also the entire article cites cane toads, Bufo marinus (more commonly called marine toads), as the species affected, however the drawing which accompanies the article is labled european toad, Bufo bufo. All these issues do not inspire much confidence in this reporting.
 

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