News Germanwings 9525 Crash in French Alps

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The Germanwings 9525 crash in the French Alps resulted in the deaths of all 150 people on board, with investigations revealing that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz intentionally crashed the plane after locking the pilot out of the cockpit. This incident has raised serious concerns about cockpit security protocols, particularly the absence of a second crew member when one pilot leaves the cockpit. The discussion highlights the need for stricter regulations, such as a "rule of two" to prevent a pilot from being alone in the cockpit, which some airlines are now considering. Additionally, the crash has prompted debates about the psychological evaluation of pilots and the potential for future tragedies if proper measures are not implemented. Overall, the tragedy underscores the critical importance of safety protocols in aviation.
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I saw headlines and news yesterday.

Very strange situation indeed - the plane was in a controlled dive, on it's flight path, for about 8 minutes. Why?

Pilot in German Airbus crash was locked out of cockpit: New York Times
http://news.yahoo.com/pilot-german-airbus-crash-locked-cockpit-york-times-234950004--sector.html

Minute by minute, the demise of doomed German flight
http://news.yahoo.com/minute-minute-demise-doomed-german-flight-201006515.html

Yesterday -

Plane crash kills 150 people in French Alps; black box found
http://news.yahoo.com/french-media-report-plane-crash-alps-148-aboard-105318651--finance.html

Tearful crash victims' relatives gather at airports
http://news.yahoo.com/relatives-german-plane-crash-victims-gather-barcelona-airport-144936211.html

Why Germanwings flight might have crashed over the Alps
http://news.yahoo.com/why-germanwings-flight-might-crashed-over-alps-170804936.html
 
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Very strange that there was not a crew person also in the cockpit when the other pilot was outside.
 
One can imagine all kinds of scenarios:

(1) The pilot goes to the bathroom, and the co-pilot decides to crash the plane on purpose.
(2) The pilot goes to the bathroom, the copilot has a heart attack (or some other incapacitating emergency), and the pilot can't get back in.
...

Will we know more as time goes on? If the voice recorder just tells that the pilot was locked out, but doesn't reveal the reason, and the data recorder shows that the plane dove into a mountain, we may never know what really happened.
 
phyzguy said:
One can imagine all kinds of scenarios:

(2) The pilot goes to the bathroom, the copilot has a heart attack (or some other incapacitating emergency), and the pilot can't get back in.
That was my first guess. Trouble is, (as you said) if that's what happened, we may never know unless the pilot groaned or said something before collapsing.

What I want to know though is how a pilot can even get locked-out of the cockpit!? Doesn't he have a key or a code?
 
russ_watters said:
What I want to know though is how a pilot can even get locked-out of the cockpit!? Doesn't he have a key or a code?

I would think they would have a unlock over-ride system that's mechanical (door bar that has to be removed to exit or enter) and/or a timed unlock sequence that a person inside can counter-key to maintain lock on the door. In ether case the person inside has positive control of the door for at least the period of time needed to land the plane or crash into the side of a mountain.
 
nsaspook said:
I would think they would have a unlock over-ride system that's mechanical (door bar that has to be removed to exit or enter) and/or a timed unlock sequence that a person inside can counter-key to maintain lock on the door. In ether case the person inside has positive control of the door for at least the period of time needed to land the plane or crash into the side of a mountain.
Yeah, that was kinda dumb on my part: clearly the person inside needs sole/positive control over the door when your concern is security. It's a double-edged sword, if (as Greg suggests) you don't ensure you have a second person in the cockpit at all times in case of emergency. Even if it is just to swap-out the co-pilot for a flight attendant whenever the co-pilot needs to use the restroom.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/report-france-jet-audio-shows-pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit/2015/03/25/08fea12a-d355-11e4-8b1e-274d670aa9c9_story.html says,

"Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, airlines in the U.S. don’t leave one pilot alone in the cockpit. The standard operating procedure is that if one of the pilots leaves — for example to use the bathroom — a flight attendant takes their spot in the cockpit. It was not immediately clear if European airlines have adopted the same practice."
 
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I found informed speculation at the Professional Pilots Rumor Network.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html
Now at 59 pages and 1200 comments.

US and EU flight directives are quite different. Two on deck policies vary among companies. There are a number of cockpit door designs and capabilities.

The Helios 522 crash was telling for the capability of the FA that did communicate at the last instant.
 
Airbus Crew can open in a case of emergency:
 
  • #10
Then an informed unauthorized person/passenger can also. As I said, there are a number of door designs of varying capabilities. There is speculation that the locked out pilot failed the opening protocol.
 
  • #11
Doug Huffman said:
Then an informed unauthorized person/passenger can also. As I said, there are a number of door designs of varying capabilities. There is speculation that the locked out pilot failed the opening protocol.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
Now that it's just about confirmed this was a murder suicide, that one person locking super-door has enabled the killing of a large number of people on planes since 9/11.
 
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  • #12
nsaspook said:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
Now that it's just about confirmed this was a murder suicide, that one person locking super-door has enabled the killing of a large number of people on planes since 9/11.
Should never have been alone in the cockpit. This development is so very disturbing.
 
  • #15
IMO there is no technical solution to the murderous pilot unless we remove their absolute authority to fly the plane. Human minders and watchers can all be eliminated. (passively and easily by a impenetrable cabin door in this case)

Personally I just accept the 'mad' pilot probability as being very very low and worry about the thousand other things that can go wrong while flying.
 
  • #16
Astronuc said:
I'm speechless!
Same here. I will never understand the evil that drives someone to destroy the lives of others. :frown:
 
  • #17
I think about one weird Malaysian airline crash...

I don't want to say that pilots recently go postal.

I want to say that nowadays planes tend to be really safe. Pilots are trained properly and examined. There are proper maintenance procedures implemented so machines in civilized world are in good shape.

In consequence by eliminating such normal reasons for crash, the remaining crashes would be caused by weird stuff, that no one seriously thought how to prevent.

Plus with good black box there is a good way to learn what happened and otherwise no one would believe such explanation.
 
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  • #19
heard on TV news this morning an aviation professional being interviewed
There have been 9 confirmed pilot suicide cases like this in the last 40 yrs. 7 of them have been in the last 20 yrs

Dave
 
  • #21
nsaspook said:
Unlikely, the next one will simply kill the other person in the cockpit if they are serious about mass murder.
Little chance, is better than no chance.
 
  • #22
How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?
 
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  • #23
micromass said:
How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

The door also has an inside only manual deadbolt system to prevent someone from hacking the electronics.
 
  • #24
Greg Bernhardt said:
Little chance, is better than no chance.

Yes, and the added cost is about zero for keeping two in the cabin with a crew member being the third to switch in and out.
 
  • #25
Tell that to the unions.
 
  • #26
micromass said:
How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

Which control tower? An aircraft traveling from A to B makes contact with Ground control of A for taxi control, Tower of A for take off, Radar control of A for departure procedure, several national and regional Air traffic control's enroute, then radar controller of B for arrival procedure, Tower of B for landing clearance and ground control of B for taxying to the ramp. How would any of these know when to unlock a cockpit door and in which stuation?
 
  • #27
micromass said:
How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?
It would have to be secure satellite communication, and then cybersecurity would be a critical issue. Perhaps some kind of over-ride that would help guide a plane to a safe landing, or in this case, simply a mechanism to unlock the cabin and allow pilot or security to enter.Germanwings pilot ordered jet down to 100 feet, trackers say
http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-pilot-ordered-jet-down-100-feet-trackers-172624949--finance.html

Germanwings crash: police search home of co-pilot who flew plane into mountain - rolling report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...e-co-pilot-who-crashed-his-plane-live-updates
 
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  • #28
Andre said:
Which control tower? An aircraft traveling from A to B makes contact with Ground control of A for taxi control, Tower of A for take off, Radar control of A for departure procedure, several national and regional Air traffic control's enroute, then radar controller of B for arrival procedure, Tower of B for landing clearance and ground control of B for taxying to the ramp. How would any of these know when to unlock a cockpit door and in which stuation?
Additionally, protocol delays would make it all moot. There would be the time delay from determination of a problem, positive identification of individuals who want entry with passcode verification and all sorts of security issues, authorization from responsible individuals on the ground, and then execution. Where is the extra electronics supposed to be located in the airplane so that communication can be established, and verification of that link? Who onboard has authority to access the electronics? Certainly it just could not be a "push this red button in case of emergency", right beside the food pantry.
 
  • #29
How many have died in pilot suicide of the billions [/Carl Sagan voice] of passenger flights? Terror, thy name is ignorance.
 
  • #30
"Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 you can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the 'open descent' autopilot setting," Fredrik Lindahl, chief executive of the Swedish tracking service said by email.
Hmmmmmm old troubleshooter says "How's that knob work? Is it capable of reporting motion when there was none?"

see my signature.
 
  • #31
During the rank speculation phase and at PPRuNe, pilots familiar with the AC were able to hear the detents of the knob clicking.
 
  • #32
Doug Huffman said:
pilots familiar with the AC were able to hear the detents of the knob clicking.

and no cussing at the autopilot?

Looks pretty grim , so far .

Just thinking about Hoot Gibson and the 727 slats...
 
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  • #33
Torn-up sick notes show crash pilot should have been grounded
http://news.yahoo.com/german-pilot-said-suffered-depression-anxiety-102007809--sector.html

Germanwings co-pilot had suffered depression: report
http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-co-pilot-had-suffered-depression-report-091344536.html

Prosecutors: Evidence Germanwings co-pilot hid illness
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-hunts-co-pilot-motive-amid-depression-reports-090251728--finance.html

Meanwile - French pilots suing over leaks in German jet crash probe
http://news.yahoo.com/french-pilots-suing-over-leaks-german-jet-crash-115244139.html

Pilots around Europe are angry that information about the final moments of the flight was reported in the media before prosecutors and others were informed. Pilots are concerned that the circumstances of Tuesday's crash will damage public trust.
I can imagine that the flying public is concerned about a crew's mental health now.
 
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  • #34
LOL What about the commuter-driver next to you in the fast lane?
 
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  • #35
davenn said:
... 9 confirmed pilot suicide cases like this ...
Murder-suicide.
 
  • #36
I don't like the tone taken in the media regarding the co-pilot's mental health issues. Many, many people struggle with depression and anxiety, and don't ever consider killing 149 people.
 
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  • #37
mheslep said:
Murder-suicide.
In US law, murder requires mens rea intent.
 
  • #38
Doug Huffman said:
In US law, murder requires mens rea intent.
Yes, which a pilot that purposely crashes a passenger aircraft clearly has.
 
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  • #39
mheslep said:
Yes, which a pilot that purposely crashes a passenger aircraft clearly has.
It is up the the trier of fact.
 
  • #41
I don't think the door is really the problem. The door is designed to handle external threats not an inside job by a 'lone gunman/nut'. The usually solution to minimizing insider threats is personnel risk level detection that failed in this case.
 
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  • #42
In occupations where the consequences of adverse human performance would have severe consequences such as loss of life or destruction of property, there are usually fitness-for-duty requirements. As nsaspook indicated, it failed in this case.

In consideration for such a position, one surrenders a certain amount of personal liberty.
 
  • #43
My career was in naval nuclear power from 1969 to 1995, and I am aware of no such requirements. There was explicitly no such program for submarine qualification. I served on, and consulted as a civilian, on strategic weapons platforms to see the ineffectiveness of the Personal Reliability Program for weapons qualified personnel.
 
  • #44
Doug Huffman said:
Andreas Lubitz: Knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 enabled mass murder

The ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tion-to-911-enabled-mass-murder-10137173.html

[mod note: unreliable mental health source deleted]
Honestly speaking I think that was the right choice to have reinforced door:
-choosing between terrorist attack and insider job, I'd assume that insiders are more likely to be screened properly;
-insider, if really wanted could try his luck even if there is other pilot inside during landing (just one violent manuver).
 
  • #45
How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?
 
  • #46
Doug Huffman said:
How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?

There have been a number of people who rushed the door and attempted to get in since 9/11. Most are not your typical 'terrorist' but who knows how many people would have died if they made it inside.

On the Personal Reliability Program, like anything there are levels and limits to effectiveness but PRP or any screening program is just one level in a total safety program.
I was in the Nuclear Weapons release PRP and can tell you for a fact that if you had half of the total safe combo with all the launch authenticators, the targeting SIOP and the communications channels for the EAM messages to give to the CO and weapons officers like I and one other person on the ship did they were very intrusive on your medical/mental health screening and personal life.

The meaning of Reliability in the program is not if you are completely stable. Reliability means you will actually pull the trigger when ordered so a little crazy is perfectly acceptable.
 
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  • #47
more really disturbing facts have come to light overnight

investigators interviewing the co-pilot's ex-fiancée have been told that he had bee flying over the crash site in smaller aircraft ( glider etc)
in the weeks prior to the crash. He broke off the engagement the day before the crash.

It was a well and truly premeditated act rather than a spur of the moment brain snap :frown:

Dave
 
  • #48
Doug Huffman said:
How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?
No telling how may events were discouraged because they didn't happen.

davenn said:
more really disturbing facts have come to light overnight

investigators interviewing the co-pilot's ex-fiancée have been told that he had bee flying over the crash site in smaller aircraft ( glider etc)
in the weeks prior to the crash. He broke off the engagement the day before the crash.

It was a well and truly premeditated act rather than a spur of the moment brain snap :frown:

Dave
It certainly seems that it was a premeditated act - means, motive and opportunity (MMO). He certainly had prior opportunities, but instead waited until he had sole command of a commercial aircraft. I can't imagine that he simply forgot that there we 149 others on the aircraft.
 
  • #49
Astronuc said:
No telling how may events were discouraged because they didn't happen.[ ... ]
So the Department of Homeland Severity argues. Meanwhile we have sold much liberty for a temporary security, and will achieve neither. MOLON LABE applies to much more than merely arms.
 
  • #50
Astronuc said:
I can't imagine that he simply forgot that there we 149 others on the aircraft.

Of course it was premeditated. You rarely see them labeled as such, but acts like this are basically terrorism with (sometimes) no real political motive. This guy obviously intended to destroy over a hundred random families and inflict massive psychological trauma for whatever reason. I don't think the typical "mentally ill lone wolf" media diagnosis is sophisticated enough to describe people like this.
 

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