GM and Segway plan electric two-wheeler

[Ivan Seeking]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5iDkrR9K_sSP-BxgI_CEdpYtl4VIA

WASHINGTON (AFP) — US automaker General Motors and scooter maker Segway announced Tuesday they were working together to build a new two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle for city use.

... The prototype is designed to reach speeds of up to 35 miles (56 kilometers) per hour and travel up to 35 miles between recharges. But the groups did not say when the two-wheeler would hit the roads or how much it would cost...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gN4pf_E8M_gBzWETe8o8rmbLDdbQ

Visionaries, or cockeyed optimists?

 

[wolram]

I don't know which is more eccentric that one or this one
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090324090518.htm

 

[misgfool]

Isn't it rather dangerous to move with such vehicle at such speeds?

 

[waht]

It's scary to take such two wheeler out on the road. Imagine going up against an SUV, or if some drunk diver hits you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's scary to take such two wheeler out on the road. Imagine going up against an SUV, or if some drunk diver hits you.

The same is true for motorcycles.

 

[rootX]

It's scary to take such two wheeler out on the road. Imagine going up against an SUV, or if some drunk diver hits you.

Scary as going on a bicycle?

They said this an urban car and going with traffic at about 20-30 km/hr isn't that dangerous (edit: oops that's ~50.. but then average speed will be about 30-40 km/hr.. still not dangerous IMO). But I think that looks no better than a tricycle:

http://technogra.ph/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/philippine-tricycle.jpg

 

[misgfool]

The last desperate move from GM to get their hands on government funds.

 

[mgb_phys]

The last desperate move from GM to get their hands on government funds.

While making sure that no serious electric cars get built - threatening the 100% markup SUV/Pickup market.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One thing is for sure: The Volt isn't going to save them.

Effectively a $35,000 electric [plug-in hybrid] Corolla... Yeah, those are going to sell like hotcakes.

 

[waht]

The same is true for motorcycles.

yea but there isn't that many people riding motorcycles. And if more and more people are going to switch to these mini-cars then there is a possibility of more serious and life threatening accidents. But if we are to rid of oil dependence, we have to make this transition.

 

[waht]

and also this is not the time to put volt on the street because gas prices are very low

 

[Topher925]

What a stupid and useless vehicle. Honestly, who the hell is going to buy one of these things?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Perhaps it is time to claim the bike lanes for alternative vehicles? I could see a lot of commuters using these if they are cheap, keep you dry, and perform as claimed. Barring national economic collapse, we will never see bicycles as a commuter vehicle in the mainstream. While I applaud the cyclists, it will always be a fringe mode of transport.

In the same light, there is no way that I would be caught in one of these in normal traffic. There would have to be a dedicated lane.

 

[turbo]

I'm not giving that vehicle much of a chance. You've essentially got a 2-seat electric wheelchair with a very small and odd profile. Most drivers wouldn't recognize it for what it is until they have already T-boned you in the intersection. Harleys with relatively loud exhausts (compared to cars) don't get any driver-recognition, either. The typical driver response is "He must have been speeding because I never saw him coming." I have locked up the brakes and dodged to avoid a woman running a red-light only to have her flip ME the bird, as if I had no right being on the road. I was running a decommisioned Road King Police Special at the time. How I wish I'd had the lights and siren.

 

[misgfool]

Perhaps it is time to claim the bike lanes for alternative vehicles? I could see a lot of commuters using these if they are cheap, keep you dry, and perform as claimed. Barring national economic collapse, we will never see bicycles as a commuter vehicle in the mainstream. While I applaud the cyclists, it will always be a fringe mode of transport.

NO. Cycling saves my health and yours (and the environment).

In the same light, there is no way that I would be caught in one of these in normal traffic. There would have to be a dedicated lane.

So give a car lane to these. Cars don't belong to cities.

 

[Evo]

Perhaps it is time to claim the bike lanes for alternative vehicles?

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders. You're in the car lane. But it looks like the little two wheeler in the OP is for sidewalk use?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

NO. Cycling saves my health and yours (and the environment).

While I'm not knocking cycling, any contribution to the environment is relatively insignificant, as will always be the number of cyclists who actually commute by bicycle every day.

So give a car lane to these. Cars don't belong to cities.

I do think we should start driving that direction, so to speak. For years I have been arguing that we should go a step further: Any vehicle with a GVW > 4000 Lbs is limited to using the right-most lane of the freeway, just as large trucks are often required to do.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders. You're in the car lane. But it looks like the little two wheeler in the OP is for sidewalk use?

In many parts of the country, bike-only lanes are common and could easily be opened for use by alternative vehicles, as could alternative bicycle paths that avoid the main roads. It does happen to be true that Portland is the most bicycle-friendly city in the country.

 

[misgfool]

While I'm not knocking cycling, any contribution to the environment is relatively insignificant, as will always be the number of cyclists who actually commute by bicycle every day.

Cycling saves your health, because it doesn't produce NOX or COX (well maybe CO2, but that is only greenhouse gas and not relevant) and other undesired byproducts of combustion. In fact, I should be allowed to sue you for shortening my average life span.

 

[misgfool]

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders.

I think I just saw a tear in my eye.

 

[turbo]

Our roads don't have bike lanes, either, misgfool. Maine is a very rural state, and only the major roads have breakdown lanes so that cars and trucks can pull out of the travel-lane in the case of trouble. Those make OK unofficial bike lanes, but since we have snow from November through April (and spring months are plagued with huge pot-holes and frost heaves) there is not a lot of cycling going on in those months. Also, it can take until sometime in May for sand and gravel to be swept off the roads, making cycling pretty treacherous if you're using a road-bike.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Keep in mind that given a range of 35 miles and 35 mph, these would be intended for city commuters - an option to a second car in many cases.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Cycling saves your health, because it doesn't produce NOX or COX (well maybe CO2, but that is only greenhouse gas and not relevant) and other undesired byproducts of combustion. In fact, I should be allowed to sue you for shortening my average life span.

You keep missing the essential point: It will never amount to more than a fringe mode of transportation - there will never be a large percentage of commuters doing so by bike - so the contribution to the environment will always be insignificant. Any practical option to a second car must be self-powered, dry [maybe heated], and capable of carrying a small cargo.

For the forseeable future, bikes and alternative vehicles could probably safely share the same lane space.

 

[misgfool]

You keep missing the essential point: It will never amount to more than a fringe mode of transportation - there will never be a large percentage of commuters doing so by bike - so the contribution to the environment will always be insignificant. Any practical option to a second car must be self-powered, dry [maybe heated], and capable of carrying a small cargo.

I don't get it. Using a car in a city produces local pollution, which for instance increases the risk of cancer. All commuters, residents etc are exposed to this pollution and it is created mostly by "the carpeople". Which is why cars should be banned inside cities and instead priority should be given to pedestrians, cyclists and the clean mass transit system. If "the carpeople" want to destroy their own health they are free to do so, but they don't have the right to destroy the health of others. Not to mention the risk of physical impact injury they create for others.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, bikes have had what, 150 years to catch-on? How long should we wait?

Also, we have to adapt to the market, not the other way around. The bottom line is always this: Sales. Ultimately, sales are based on need. Obviously bikes don't answer to the needs of most commuters.

 

[misgfool]

Well, bikes have had what, 150 years to catch-on? How long should we wait?

Also, we have to adapt to the market, not the other way around. The bottom line is always this: Sales. Ultimately, sales are based on need.

Wow. Congratulations. My arguments have never been so dismissed.

 

[mgb_phys]

yea but there isn't that many people riding motorcycles.

BMW did a very good attempt at this coming from the other direction.
A motorbike designed to appeal to car owners - you were safe, dry and didn't have to wear helmet/leathers.

Unfortunately it was expensive (BMW!) and hit various legal problems - some countries still required you to wear a helmet, others didn't allow seatbelts on a bike. Some allowed you to ride it on a moped license others wanted a full bike license (which meant also buying a smaller bike to learn on first)

 

[hypatia]

I found it some what amusing that the photo showed it in use in a walking area. Or maybe your just suposta park it on the walk ways?

 

[turbo]

Or maybe your just suposta park it on the walk ways?

Yes, and then walk on the parkways.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When you think about it, something like this is highly compatible with mass transit. In many areas here in the US, one practical problem with mass transit is getting to the transit station. Heck, you could almost ride them onto the transit car.

 

[mgb_phys]

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders. You're in the car lane.

But at least they warn you !

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/watch-for-bikes.jpg

For fun examples of the UK's attempts at bike lanes, the famous http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Wow. Congratulations. My arguments have never been so dismissed.

Sorry, I'm not known for being diplomatic, but your argument has been around for as long as I can remember. Beyond that, there are basic concepts that are already known. One concept is that the market determines what sells. No matter how much we might like an idea, we have to answer to the needs of the market. I don't mean to be a jerk, but we have to be practical.

 

[Evo]

I don't get it. Using a car in a city produces local pollution, which for instance increases the risk of cancer. All commuters, residents etc are exposed to this pollution and it is created mostly by "the carpeople". Which is why cars should be banned inside cities and instead priority should be given to pedestrians, cyclists and the clean mass transit system. If "the carpeople" want to destroy their own health they are free to do so, but they don't have the right to destroy the health of others. Not to mention the risk of physical impact injury they create for others.

misg, in the US, people often have to drive 30-70 or more miles from their home in the suburbs to get "downtown" and many cities, like mine, do not have mass transit.

 

[turbo]

misg, in the US, people often have to drive 30-70 or more miles from their home in the suburbs to get "downtown" and many cities, like mine, do not have mass transit.

Also, in rural areas, like where I live, the manufacturing jobs are concentrated in population centers. My wife has to drive 30 miles round trip to her manufacturing job, and the decent wages and benefits draw people from as far as 40 miles away or more. Except when gas goes sky-high, it is often more economical to live in a small town with a stable tax base than to live in built-up areas where the jobs are. It's not quite the same as a city/suburb scenario, but there are similarities. There is nothing around here that deserves to be called a city within probably 75 miles, and even those are small compared to towns in other states and other countries. If you don't drive, you don't survive.

 

[russ_watters]

What a stupid and useless vehicle. Honestly, who the hell is going to buy one of these things?

I can't imagine such a vehicle would pass any kind of safety test. It is guaranteed to pitch over (like a rollover, but in the pitch axis) in virtually any conceivable type of accident. This isn't a Segue (sp?), which only goes at a light jogging speed, making serious injury unlikely. At 35 mph, this thing is a deathtrap.

 

[russ_watters]

Regarding the issue of small electric vehicles, they seem like a good idea, but their utility is very limited. Others have noted some of the issues, but just consider that overgrown golf carts already exist, but don't have much of a demand.

-They aren't all that useful for city driving because people in cities who might use one don't own cars anyway.
-They aren't that useful for driving more than perhaps 15 miles to work (not at 35 mph, anyway), so you won't get many who buy it as a commuter car (a plug-in hybrid is much more expensive, but vastly superior in capabilities).

The only market I can see for it is the one already dominated by golf carts or similar vehicles: resort community transportation. This is a growing market, but it will never be a large one.

Here's one with a range of 35 miles and a top speed of 25 mph that you can buy right now: http://www.gemcar.com/models/details.asp?MID=3 At $10k, it is a little on the expensive side, but that might be because of the limited market.

 

[sylas]

I confess... it looks cute. But it's a bad idea. What struck me most strongly on reading about this was remarks by Larry Burns (GM's vice president of research and development) as quoted in the Age newspaper here in Australia.

Ideally, the vehicles would also be part of a communications network that through the use of transponder and GPS technology would allow them to drive themselves. The vehicles would automatically avoid obstacles such as pedestrians and other cars and therefore never crash, Burns said.

As a result, the PUMA vehicles would not need air bags or other traditional safety devices and include safety belts for "comfort purposes" only, he said.

(-- Ditch the Hummer, here comes the PUMA, in the Age, April 7 2009 --)​

This reminds me of the joke about the new fully automated aircraft. As passengers arrived, the message came over the PA:

"Welcome aboard the new WTF500. This aircraft is fitted the best of modern technology, to ensure that nothing can possibly go wrong *click* go wrong *click* go wrong *click* go wrong"​

Boggle. -- Sylas

 

[Evo]

Ideally, the vehicles would also be part of a communications network that through the use of transponder and GPS technology would allow them to drive themselves. The vehicles would automatically avoid obstacles such as pedestrians and other cars and therefore never crash, Burns said.​

GPS doesn't work that way. There is no way to get a GPS location of someone walking in front of you real time. What a moron.​

 

[mgb_phys]

GPS doesn't work that way. There is no way to get a GPS location of someone walking in front of you real time. What a moron.

You can broadcast your GPS position constantly over a low power mesh network in the
same way as an aircraft TCAS. There are a few countries looking at this for freeways - Mercedes have a prototype system that is linked to their anti collision radar so that when it breaks it tells any cars behind it that it is braking.
The idea is to ultimately have something like HOV lanes for cars equipped with this - with corresponding higher speed limits (an probably tolls!)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Regarding the issue of small electric vehicles, they seem like a good idea, but their utility is very limited. Others have noted some of the issues, but just consider that overgrown golf carts already exist, but don't have much of a demand.

They may not have had much of a chance yet. Funny that you mention it though, it didn't even occur to me that my aunt drives one of these, or something similar, as a local commuter vehicle.

Here's one with a range of 35 miles and a top speed of 25 mph that you can buy right now: http://www.gemcar.com/models/details.asp?MID=3 At $10k, it is a little on the expensive side, but that might be because of the limited market.

Global Electric Motorcars, a Chrysler company, has been in operation for ten years. Located in Fargo, North Dakota, Global Electric Motorcars manufactured its first vehicle in April 1998, a 48-volt GEM car that accommodated two passengers and had a top speed of 20 mph. Less than two months later, a significant breakthrough occurred in the market as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) designated a new class of motor vehicle, the low-speed vehicle, also known as the Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (NEV). The low-speed vehicle class allowed GEM cars to be driven on public roads if they met certain safety criteria such as having safety belts, headlamps, windshield wipers, and safety glass. GEM cars always come equipped with these safety features making them a benchmark in the industry.

http://www.gemcar.com/company/

As for a market, who has ever seen one of these advertised? I have seen no marketing whatsoever. You can't sell a secret.

The other thing is that going from 25mph to 35mph takes you from residential streets, to Blvds. So we are not talking about the same class of vehicles.

 

[misgfool]

misg, in the US, people often have to drive 30-70 or more miles from their home in the suburbs to get "downtown" and many cities, like mine, do not have mass transit.

Fubar. Why do you live in the suburbs? Let me guess, the cities are so polluted?

 

[misgfool]

Those make OK unofficial bike lanes, but since we have snow from November through April (and spring months are plagued with huge pot-holes and frost heaves) there is not a lot of cycling going on in those months.

We have rural villages, which have snow from September to June and even they have cycling roads.

 

[physics girl phd]

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders. You're in the car lane. But it looks like the little two wheeler in the OP is for sidewalk use?

Good luck there too. We don't have bike lanes or shoulders either... and many sidewalks in our town are too narrow (being blocked by power-line posts, tree-spots, etc. ... or messed up in regions. We often have a hard enough time getting our son's 1-seater electric wheelchair through.

I also think cities would be likely to put regulations on these regarding pedestrian/bike paths (usually this is done by allowing them... but with a speed restriction). Bike lanes they would perhaps allow. I agree that in general, it seems like a dangerous mode of transportation, turbo's right in that too often people don't even recognize motorcycles (or scooters... or bicycles for that matter).

I'm glad I usually walk to work or use the free trolley, and that we're presently a one-car family (be that unfortunately by necessity a huge honking wheel-chair-accessible gas-guzzling van).

 

[physics girl phd]

Bike lanes, you have bike lanes? Most of our roads don't even have shoulders. You're in the car lane. But it looks like the little two wheeler in the OP is for sidewalk use?

Good luck there too. We don't have bike lanes or shoulders either... and many sidewalks in our town are too narrow (being blocked by power-line posts, tree-spots, etc. ... or messed up in regions. We often have a hard enough time getting our son's 1-seater electric wheelchair through.

I also think cities would be likely to put regulations on these regarding pedestrian/bike paths (usually this is done by allowing them... but with a speed restriction). Bike lanes they would perhaps allow. I agree that in general, it seems like a dangerous mode of transportation, turbo's right in that too often people don't even recognize motorcycles (or scooters... or bicycles for that matter).

I'm glad I usually walk to work or use the free trolley, and that we're presently a one-car family (be that unfortunately by necessity a huge honking wheel-chair-accessible gas-guzzling van... which fortunately does also come quite in handy for transporting science equipment when I do outreach to local schools, since the whole middle area is carved out and I can just wheel a cart in and lock it down!).