Great News: I paid > $3.00/gallon for gas today

[Ivan Seeking]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

 

[franznietzsche]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

Bugger that its been over $3 out here for more than a year, with the sole exception of when oil prices crashed almost down to $50 a barrel. It was $3.50 last june, and its only slightly lower than that now.

 

[mattmns]

Woah, franz, welcome back.We are getting close to that $3/gallon price, we are at $2.89/gallon at the station closest to my house, but I am sure it will be above $3 in a week or two. I should probably say that I don't drive, so I really don't worry too much about gas prices (maybe I should, I don't know).

 

[Cyrus]

I just saved a ton of money by switching to Geico.

 

[wolram]

Heck i would be able to buy another motorbike on the money
i saved if gas was only $3 over here.

 

[Ki Man]

Lol.. i find it kinda funny that you guys are still considering $3 an extremely high price.. we'e had 3+ in california for a while, i was suprised we were able to get back down to $2 for a month or so, then it went back up

 

[Integral]

So what are the prices running in So Cal now? We will be heading that way with our new gas guzzler next month.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Prices in California are projected to be above $6 a gallon for the summer. Regular gas cost an average of $3.25 in the state last week but will rise to $5 by next month

Of course it could be that I was Just kidding.

Prices in California are projected to be above $3 a gallon for the summer. Regular gas cost an average of $3.25 in the state last week

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={6BC27F17-FD85-4C28-A7AD-4227447B89FA}

 

[Astronuc]

Our gasoline prices have been steadily increasing, sometimes by $0.01-0.03/day. I am not sure why, except demand is strong and supply is tight (although that seems somewhat contrived). Oil prices go down, but the price of gasoline goes up.

I did hear that the conversion of some refining units from heating oil to gasoline, or from winter blend to summer blend was delayed because of the extended cold.

Right now, the price of regular is between $2.90-$2.96 in our area, which is up about $0.06 from two days ago.

 

[Art]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

What's good about biodiesel? Most biodiesel in the US comes from corn and there is a net loss between the energy used in production and conversion, which comes largely from fossil fuels, and the energy derived.

 

[brewnog]

I paid $7.74 a gallon this morning.

 

[Art]

An interesting article relating to bio-fuels

Ethanol cars may not be healthier
Ethanol vehicles may have worse effects on human health than conventional petrol, US scientists have warned.
A computer model set up to simulate air quality in 2020 found that in some areas ozone levels would increase if all cars were run on bioethanol.

Deaths from respiratory problems and asthma attacks would increase with such levels, the researchers reported in Environmental Science and Technology.

The EU has agreed that biofuels should be used in 10% of transport by 2020.

Mark Jacobson, an atmospheric scientist at Stanford University in California, used a computer model which took into account factors such as temperatures, sunlight, clouds and rain to simulate air quality in 2020 for two different scenarios.

In one simulation all vehicles were fuelled by petrol and in the other all vehicles were fuelled by E85 - a mix of 85% ethanol and 15% petrol.

If all cars were run on E85, he found that in some parts of the US there were significant increases in ozone - a pollutant with harmful effects on the human respiratory system - compared with petrol cars.

In the study, the increase in smog translated to an extra 200 deaths per year in the whole of the US, with 120 occurring in Los Angeles alone.

Increases in ozone in some areas of the US would be offset by decreases in other areas but overall there would be 770 additional visits to accident and emergency and 990 additional hospitalisations for asthma and other respiratory problems, the results showed.

Although ethanol was found to reduce levels of two atmospheric carcinogens, levels of others increased so associated cancers would be the same as with pollution caused by petrol fumes, the study showed.

Damage

"We found that using E85 will cause at least as much health damage as gasoline, which already causes about 10,000 premature deaths annually from ozone and particulate matter," said Jacobson.

"The question is, if we're not getting any health benefits, then why continue to promote ethanol and other biofuels."

He added: "By comparison, converting all vehicles to battery-electric, where the electricity is from wind energy would eliminate 10,000 air pollution deaths per year and 98% of carbon emissions from vehicles."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6563255.stm
These green environmentalists are ruining the environment

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What's good about biodiesel? Most biodiesel in the US comes from corn and there is a net loss between the energy used in production and conversion, which comes largely from fossil fuels, and the energy derived.

You are confusing ethanol with biodiesel. Biodiesel is made from many different seed stock and yields about a net 60% energy gain - ie every one-hundred gallons made require about forty gallons worth of energy for cultivation and processing. Of course biodiesel is made from from canola, mustard, rape, palm, corn, cotton, hemp, soybean, hazelnut, euphorbia, sesame, sunflower, cotton, cocoa, peanuts, avacado, coconuts, olives..., and best of all, algae, so the processing needs can vary depending on the stock. Some are certainly far better than others. Corn yields about 18 gallons per acre-year. Algae can produce as much as 20,000 gallons per acre year.

The aquatic species program studied algae for biodiesel production for almost twenty years. It was determined that this would be a competitive option when fuel prices are about a dollar per gallon cheaper than it is today.

 

[Quaoar]

Gas prices aren't that bad. The only reason why people complain so much is because they are the only product that advertises their prices with gigantic signs that people can't miss.

 

[edward]

Our gasoline prices have been steadily increasing, sometimes by $0.01-0.03/day. I am not sure why, except demand is strong and supply is tight (although that seems somewhat contrived). Oil prices go down, but the price of gasoline goes up.

I did hear that the conversion of some refining units from heating oil to gasoline, or from winter blend to summer blend was delayed because of the extended cold.

Right now, the price of regular is between $2.90-$2.96 in our area, which is up about $0.06 from two days ago.

The oil companies are also saying that the supply is slowed in the Spring because they have to start adding ethanol or MBTE to produce the oxygenated fuels many cities require.

The odd thing is that every spring catches them by surprise and they aren't ready for it. I think that they should be held accountable for the yearly spring windfall profits. They have no incentive to want to change the refining processes on their own.

 

[JasonRox]

I heard Biodiesel emmitt's more carbon than regular diesel. Is that true? If you say no, then is there a source?

Remember, I'm not arguing it is, so don't ask for a source from me. I just heard. If you just heard it is not true, than say so or provide a source.

 

[Moonbear]

I heard Biodiesel emmitt's more carbon than regular diesel. Is that true? If you say no, then is there a source?

I don't know if it's true or not, but one factor to consider is that growing the crops for it also absorbs carbon, so if someone does have information on that, we'd need to know the net difference between carbon used in production and released during burning to know if one really was better or worse than the other overall.

As for gas prices going up, I don't know if that's really going to change anyone's habits much. Maybe for a short time while they complain at the initial shock, but then they'll get used to it again and go right back to what they were doing before. We've already hit $3/gal many times before in the past few years, and it hasn't changed much. It's not like it's more cost-effective to run out and buy a new car, and there aren't any other options around here as alternative fuels for the cars people already have, and we don't have any public transportation worth using, so even if people here wanted to do something different, they really can't. More likely, the habits that will change are other things they cut back buying so they have the money to pay for gas (or the rising cost of everything else as the higher prices start affecting everything that requires shipping).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Since all of the carbon in the algae [grown in open ponds] and other crops comes from the atmosphere, biodiesel is considered to be carbon neutral. I do sometimes see numbers like 95% neutral, which I don't yet understand. However, algae for biodiesel production is being investigated and used to scrub carbon dioxide from industrial emissions, so in this case biodiesel is considered to be made from "recycled carbon".

 

[brewnog]

Biodiesel is carbon neutral; the carbon released as CO2 during combustion is equal to that absorbed by the plant from atmospheric CO2 during its life.

I believe the 95% efficiency referred to by Ivan is to take into account carbon released (from tractors, trucks and refineries etc) used during production, processing, and transport of the fuel.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wondered about that: It assumes that we don't use biodiesel power to make biodiesel. If so, that can eventually be avoided.

 

[brewnog]

I wondered about that: It assumes that we don't use biodiesel power to make biodiesel. If so, that can eventually be avoided.

It could definitely be improved (biodiesel trucks and tractors), but I don't know enough about the refining systems to know whether you could eliminate all additional carbon release from the SVO to RME process, or whatever.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Something else that came to mind as a potential candidate for the 5% are other sources of carbon, such as carbon from carbonates that may be absorbed by the plants. But then not all carbon is converted to CO2 during combustion, so this makes me wonder if elemental carbon emissions [soot and other particulates] are included here, or if it is assumed that all carbon ends up as CO2.

 

[mathwonk]

in 1970 i drove cross country paying an average of 30 cents a gallon for gas. prices of most things tend to double each decade. after 30 years, i.e. in 2000, that predicts a price of $2.40 a gallon, and at least $3.00 a gallon now.

gas is not high at all, considering many many people here are choosing to drive very inefficient vehicles. in order to conserve resources and encourage more efficient cars, gas taxes need to be far higher.

 

[franznietzsche]

Biofuels are not a sustainable alternative to oil in anyway. On small scales they are fine, but to convert all our transportation to these fuels would require us to starve from burning all our food to drive cars.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not with algae. In fact, given an area of about 310X310 miles, we could replace all souces of energy - coal, petro, NG, and all electrical. Algae does not need to compete with food for land, or for clean water, which is often another real concern. In fact, in some cases we can produce biodiesel by cleaning up industrial and municipal waste.

 

[franznietzsche]

Not with algae. In fact, given an area of about 310X310 miles, we could replace all souces of energy - coal, petro, NG, and all electrical.

Source? Is that for the US? Global? You're talking about an area approximately the size of half the state of california.

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/06/university_of_n.html

To further expand on possibility of attaining self sufficiency in liquid fuels the following is offered: To replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need roughly 140 billion gallons of biodiesel. To produce that amount of biodiesel by growing soybeans would require almost 3 billion acres or over 1 billion acres growing canola (rapeseed), at nominal yields of 48 and 127 gallons oil per acre, respectively.(7) To produce that amount, by growing algae producing 15,000 gallons per acre, would require a land mass of roughly 9.5 million acres (almost 15,000 square miles ). To put these numbers in perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US comprises 120,000 square miles...450 million acres are currently used for crop farming in the US, and over 500 million acres are used as grazing land for farm animals (1). As has been shown here it is not possible to grow enough of the more conventional crops to meet our fuel needs, but using algae it is possible.

Hmm, seems it is true. Though I find this sources referral to hard amounts rather than production and consumption rates to be questionable.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In Oregon we have a little over 500,000 acres of grass fields. Using the average number quoted [10,000 gallons per acre-year] this is enough land to produce about 5,000,000,000 gallons of fuel a year.

Some sources are now claiming double that rate of production per acre-year.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Source? Is that for the US? Global? You're talking about an area approximately the size of half the state of california.

I will have to dig up the source I used for the total US energy demand, but by chance I just did this calc the other night [just out of curiosity]. But the production rate of 10K gallons per year are available at nearly any biodiesel from algae source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Biodiesel contains about 118,300 BTUs per gallon.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...iesel+energy+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I don't think it is practical or necessary to convert everything to biodiesel, but the fact that even in principle it is possible is very exciting. I have never seen such a viable option.

 

[franznietzsche]

I will have to dig up the source I used for the total US energy demand, but by chance I just did this calc the other night [just out of curiosity]. But the production rate of 10K gallons per year are available at nearly any biodiesel from algae source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Biodiesel contains about 118,300 BTUs per gallon.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...iesel+energy+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I don't think it is practical or necessary to convert everything to biodiesel, but the fact that even in principle it is possible is very exciting. I have never seen such a viable option.

Actually based on that limited info biodiesel from algae is more attractive than any of the alternatives. Ethanol is a horrendous idea. Electric cars are just as bad an idea. Fuel cell driven cars aren't as bad an idea, but still not great.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't spot my source but I have 100E15 [100 quadrillion] BTUs annually. Also, that should be 370X370 miles.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Actually based on that limited info biodiesel from algae is more attractive than any of the alternatives. Ethanol is a horrendous idea. Electric cars are just as bad an idea. Fuel cell driven cars aren't as bad an idea, but still not great.

At first I thought it was a terrible idea because of my perception of diesel engines, plus, it sounded wacky, but after some homework I became an avid supporter. Right now I have algae growing in my office, and I hope to expand enough to run a generator [for limited testing] by the end of the summer.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is the bible of the industry. Keep in mind that it is now out of date and much cutting edge work in underway.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/pdfs/biodiesel_from_algae.pdf

This was predicted to be competitive when fuel prices are double their 1998 levels, which I understand would be about $2 per gallon for diesel.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, got to add one more very important point: Algae can be grown to produce biodiesel, ethanol, or hydrogen. It is a transition technology for the ultimate goal of an ultra-clean hydrogen economy.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is from 1998 whereas I think my other source was newer, ~2002, but this was easy and it lists the total US consumption for 1998 as ~94 quad BTUs.
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html

 

[Astronuc]

Regular gasoline surged past $3.00/gal last week. It had been steadily rising.

Some relevant articles -

Passing the buck on fuel economy
Instead of ensuring that we use less gas, politicians and consumers take the easy way out, says Fortune's Alex Taylor.

Back in 2000, when gasoline was the cheapest liquid around, fuel economy ranked as the 29th most important attribute in buying a car. Today, when gas costs as much as $3.25 a gallon, good mileage still ranks only 22nd. Sound systems and convenience features rank higher as purchase considerations.

But rather than giving consumers an incentive to change their buying habits, Bush wants to force automakers to build more fuel efficient cars by raising the corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards for passenger cars and light trucks.

. . .

If Bush wanted some guidance on how to quickly and efficiently meet his goals, he need only look to Europe and Japan, where the motor vehicle fleets get dramatically better mileage than they do in the United States. Cars average 36 mpg in Europe and 31 mpg in Japan vs. only 21 mpg in the United States.

The 'little white lies' about oil inventories
Price movements following the government's weekly inventory report used to be fairly predictable. No more.

Oil prices still sometimes make big moves right after the inventory figures are released each Wednesday morning.

I noticed the latest price jump came during the afternoon after the inventory numbers were released. I drove past the local gas station in the morning and the price was less than $3.00, and when I returned in the afternoon, they price had been increased by $0.10. Prior to that, the prices jumps had been a few cents per week.

 

[Moonbear]

Hmm...it still hasn't surpassed $3.00/gal here. It was up to $2.89 when I filled up yesterday, but has been holding steady there for a while. I'm sure they'll find a reason to raise it up even higher for the Memorial Day weekend though.

 

[Astronuc]

Our state has one of the highest excise taxes on gasoline in the country.

 

[dlgoff]

Astronuc. Why don't we hear about nuclear power? IMO it's the only way to go. Just think of all the hydrogen one could produce with just one 800 MW generator.

 

[Astronuc]

Gasoline, like diesel fuel or alcohol, is one of those fuels for transportation, rather than coal, oil, gas or nuclear which are used in electrical generation.

There is an initiative for hydrogen production using nuclear plants, but that is advanced technology still in the R&D phase. Then there is the matter of commercial acceptance for this form of nuclear energy.

We do have separate threads on nuclear energy in the Nuclear Engineering and P&WA forums.

Presently -

Worldwide, there are 28 new nuclear reactors being built, 64 on the drawing boards and another 158 proposed, according to John S. Herold's Ruppel. If all those reactors get built, it would mean 57 percent more reactors from the 435 in operation.

from Forbes online.

 

[hypatia]

Gas prices JUMPED, in 3 days its now $3.15 for reg. {faints}.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

With 100 nuclear power plants operating in the US, the energy yield is about 9.8% of our total energy production, and 7.6% of our total energy consumption. So it would take more than ten times the number of plants of similar size to meet all of our energy needs assuming that the well-to-wheels and dust-to-dust efficiency of a nuclear powered US translates as 1:1 with our current energy structure. I suggest that another species will rule the planet before this could ever happen; esp given that we live in an age of terrorism.

I think I paid $3.49 for gas in Seattle.

late edits

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Weekly U.S. Retail Gasoline Prices, Regular Grade
Dollars per gallon, including all taxes
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html

 

[Ian]

Petrol here in the United Kingdom averages £0.93 per litre, that converts to about $7.50 per gallon I think.
Stop moaning and start crying for us!

 

[u83rn00b]

You know that gas isn't as expesive for the US anymore, the damn crooks of the government just want a boatload of $$$$. The war is practicly over now. Bush is just makin sum biig scene. The us doesn't have any trouble getting oil from anywhere, it isn't even as expensive as they r telling us!

 

[FredGarvin]

Until we reach the prices Europe pays for a gallon, I am not going to complain. Even when I was stationed in Germany, gas was extremely expensive if I bought from a local gas station and not a PX.

I did hear a news blurb last night that blamed current prices partially on production issues at a refinery in Chicago and one other city (I was kind of falling asleep at the time).

 

[Astronuc]

I've heard that switching over to the summer blends was delayed because of the cooler weather. The local price, which surged ~$0.10, I think last Friday, has dropped back a few cents. I guess psychologically, people relax a bit if they see a small drop after a big surge.

I just need to pay off my wife's car so I can by a more fuel efficent one, but I am seriously thinking about cycling 6.5 miles to work. It's a bit hazardous with all the hills and curves and limited shoulder/bike path, but it would be good exercise and much more fuel efficient.

 

[FredGarvin]

I have often debated about biking or even running to work. I only live about 5 miles away. The only problem is that roads in my area were never meant to share with bikers and runners. I would be taking my life into my own hands. Plus the notion of riding my bike amongst a couple hundred cars makes me a bit uneasy.

 

[Astronuc]

I have often debated about biking or even running to work. I only live about 5 miles away. The only problem is that roads in my area were never meant to share with bikers and runners. I would be taking my life into my own hands. Plus the notion of riding my bike amongst a couple hundred cars makes me a bit uneasy.

Yeah, that is pretty much the case here. There are some roads with bike lanes and there are some bike paths, but the problem is to get there - about 1-1.5 miles - without getting hit. The traffic volume is bad enough, but I have seen a few inattentive drivers recently, including the one two days ago who was speeding and ran a red light in front of us, while skidding through the cross-walk and swerving between a car and truck which had already entered the intersection.

Several months ago, I came across a cyclist who had been hit by a car. The driver was exiting a parking lot and not paying attention.

 

[out of whack]

I have seen a few inattentive drivers recently, including the one two days ago who was speeding and ran a red light in front of us, while skidding through the cross-walk and swerving between a car and truck which had already entered the intersection.

Several months ago, I came across a cyclist who had been hit by a car. The driver was exiting a parking lot and not paying attention.

No kidding. I've been thinking for some time now that allowing just everybody to be in control of a deadly hunk of metal is a big mistake. I dream of automated "rail cars" that drive themselves instead so you can nap on your way to work and not swerve into pedestrians. Cars have replaced horses but it may be time to start replacing cars with something more efficient now.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I rode my bike to school in L.A. for a time, but after the third close call I gave it up. Good for my health? I don't think so.