Is it Time for the US Government to Ban Gun Ownership?

[Huckleberry]

Similarly, Federalist Noah Webster wrote:

Tyranny is the exercise of some power over a man, which is not warranted by law, or necessary for the public safety. A people can never be deprived of their liberties, while they retain in their own hands, a power sufficient to any other power in the state.[8]

One example given by Webster of a "power" that the people could resist was that of a standing army:

Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.[9]

Guns are a part of our pursuit of liberty. A populace without weapons has no resistance to a tyranny, foreign or domestic.

Personally, I don't know why people are so afraid of guns. Where I lived in Arizona most of the men wore pistols or revolvers on their sides as they walked around the town. Every other pick-up truck had a rifle rack in the back. Guns were all over the place. Criminals had them too. They didn't mess with the town and the town didn't mess with them. The criminals mostly shot other criminals.

Like others have said, a ban on guns will only remove from law abiding citizens the ability and the right to defend themselves from criminals. There are laws that prevent criminals from having firearms. They still have them. A ban will not affect a criminal because they have no respect for the laws they break.

From the information I have read, crime has increased in nations that have firearm bans.

 

[ukmicky]

According to the ITV news the US PRO GUN LOBBY have said that guns shouldn't be banned and that
"if the students had been allowed to carry their own guns they would have then been able to defend theirselves".

How mad is that.

 

[scorpa]

Canadian ,near enough

Hey! :tongue:

I don't think even the most educated people in that situation would have been able to do much. If you've got somebody seemingly determined to kill as much and as indiscriminately as in this case then there's nothing much you can do as you'll most likely be shot before you get near. If however you could enlighten the rest of us as to how to take out a crazed gunman while unarmed we'd all love to know.

It would be impossible or nearly so in that situation. You would have to have a large group of people willing to charge at the gunmen... not easy to convince people to do that when half will probably get shot in the process. Not to mention in the mayhem you can't really hold a meeting and make such a plan.

I guess you could argue that if firearms were allowed in colleges someone could have just shot the gunmen, hence problem solved and 30 people's lives are saved. However I think it's pretty safe to say that school's are not a place for firearms or weapons of any kind. Really people have no reason to just be carrying guns around with them. On the farm yes. Cops yes. To go to the shooting range sure. Hunting yes. But to go to town or school there is hardly any need and really I don't see the attraction or desire ----and this is coming from someone who doesn't think they should be banned.

 

[drankin]

According to the ITV news the US PRO GUN LOBBY have said that guns shouldn't be banned and that
"if the students had been allowed to carry their own guns they would have then been able to defend theirselves".

How mad is that.

What do you mean? It is totally correct. If the adult students and staff there were allowed to carry their own guns this would have went down with a lot less casualties. Like I said earlier, I carry my handgun at all times. If something like this were to happen around me, I'd at least have an opportunity to stop it and possibly save a lot of lives.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

American here, voted for the ban. Then again, LYN often (teasingly) calls me un-American.

 

[ukmicky]

What do you mean? It is totally correct. If the adult students and staff there were allowed to carry their own guns this would have went down with a lot less casualties. Like I said earlier, I carry my handgun at all times. If something like this were to happen around me, I'd at least have an opportunity to stop it and possibly save a lot of lives.

Your not seriously saying that students in a university, a place of learning should be allowed to carry guns into class.
If you were a parent would you really want your child to go to a university and sit along side a bunch of hormonal kids with guns strapped to their waists .

 

[scorpa]

According to the ITV news the US PRO GUN LOBBY have said that guns shouldn't be banned and that
"if the students had been allowed to carry their own guns they would have then been able to defend theirselves".

How mad is that.

It probably would have saved a lot of lives. Not saying I condone carrying guns in schools, just stating the truth that in this situation it probably would have prevented many deaths.

 

[Bystander]

Pair of 9 mms? Three people rush the loon, and one gets shot. They've got to be prepared to, "Ohmigod!" hit him, maybe break a couple bones. It's called education: the operator of a firearm has to aim at each target and pull the trigger, and tenths of seconds are required for each shot by a skilled user --- how long's it take to cover the five yards between me and him? Second? Couple shots? He hits one of three in a hurry at a moving target, he's NHL material.

 

[TuviaDaCat]

bah, i meant to say automatic guns. so why do they sell automatic guns anyway?

 

[drankin]

Your not seriously saying that students in a university, a place of learning should be allowed to carry guns into class.
If you were a parent would you really want your child to go to a university and sit along side a bunch of hormonal kids with guns strapped to their waists .

I said "adults". And, of course, the guns would have to be concealed. It is completely legal in most states for an adult to carry a firearm provided they have a permit and it is concealed. But very few people excercise that right. I would have no problem sending my daughter to college knowing that there are licensed adults carry handguns there. In fact, I would worry less if that were the case.

 

[Anttech]

Random speculation, perhaps if the manic wasnt born this event wouldn't have happened. Perhaps if his gun jammed he wouldn't have killed as many.

The fact of the matter is that he did, and the pro-gun lobbiest spin only works on the ones who want to believe that guns make a happier safer place for all people... Let's just forget todays events shall we...

 

[Kurdt]

Actually, what I meant by that is that fear of guns is why they aren't allowed on campus. So, no one there was armed and able to defend themselves against a gunman. Most mass murders like this happen in "gun free" zones. "Gun free" zones were created because of an unhealthy fear of guns. These zones supposedly make you "safer" when in fact you are more vulnerable.

You are only more vulnerable because guns are available relatively easily. Of course with the prevailance of guns in the US there would have to be a huge amnesty and it would be very difficult to administer if they were to restrict guns.

 

[Evo]

Since the person was Asian, he probably could not have legally purchased a gun. So, a non-American carrying an illegal weapon?

 

[drankin]

bah, i meant to say automatic guns. so why do they sell automatic guns anyway?

I think there is only a state or two that allows automatic weapons to be owned by everyday citizens. Everywhere else it's very difficult to obtain the required permits. But, this incident did not involve automatic weapons.

 

[Anttech]

I said "adults". And, of course, the guns would have to be concealed. It is completely legal in most states for an adult to carry a firearm provided they have a permit and it is concealed. But very few people excercise that right. I would have no problem sending my daughter to college knowing that there are licensed adults carry handguns there. In fact, I would worry less if that were the case.

Happy you have so much faith in your society even after 1 manic just killed 30 people. Seems some people can't see the wood for the trees, Statistics show us how violent the USA is, yet you argue that by making sure there are more and more guns everywhere society will be safer? The maths on this one just doesn't add up for me.

America won't ever get rid of its guns, that's for sure. I am just happy that we can all look at your mistakes and not do them in our societies.

 

[Anttech]

Since the person was Asian, he probably could not have legally purchased a gun. So, a non-American carrying an illegal weapon?

Asians are allowed to own guns in America?

 

[ukmicky]

It probably would have saved a lot of lives. Not saying I condone carrying guns in schools, just stating the truth that in this situation it probably would have prevented many deaths.

It could have also saved lives if someone took in a shotgun or kalasnikov or a crossbow . I know what about a grenade, even though their quite indescriminate it may have caused less deaths :yuck: How about a nice selection of throwing knives, no forget the kinives there to dangerous.

scorpa I know your not saying that's guns should be allowed in universities but seriously the gun lobby statement is dumb,guns don't belong in a place of learning under any circumstances.

PS This forum needs spellcheck

 

[drankin]

Happy you have so much faith in your society even after 1 manic just killed 30 people. Seems some people can't see the wood for the trees, Statistics show us how violent the USA is, yet you argue that by making sure there are more and more guns everywhere society will be safer? The maths on this one just doesn't add up for me.

America won't ever get rid of its guns, that's for sure. I am just happy that we can all look at your mistakes and not do them in our societies.

The more law abiding citizens carrying firearms WOULD make it safer, absolutely. I don't see why you disagree? How would it not be safer from maniacs going on killing sprees?

 

[Evo]

Asians are allowed to own guns in America?

Did you mean "are not"? If he had a student visa, he could not legally buy a gun.

Who Cannot Have a Gun in America?

Guide Extra:

The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits certain people from possessing a firearm. The possession of any firearm by one of these "prohibited persons" is a felony offense. It is also a felony for any person, including a registered Federal Firearms Licensee to sell or otherwise transfer any firearm to a person knowing or having "reasonable cause" to believe that the person receiving the firearm is prohibited from firearm possession. There are nine categories of persons prohibited from possessing firearms under the Gun Control Act:

Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any
crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding on year;

Fugitives from justice;

Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance;

Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution;

Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;

Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces;

Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship;

Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders; and

Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blnoguns.htm

 

[Kurdt]

Guns are a part of our pursuit of liberty. A populace without weapons has no resistance to a tyranny, foreign or domestic.

Personally, I don't know why people are so afraid of guns. Where I lived in Arizona most of the men wore pistols or revolvers on their sides as they walked around the town. Every other pick-up truck had a rifle rack in the back. Guns were all over the place. Criminals had them too. They didn't mess with the town and the town didn't mess with them. The criminals mostly shot other criminals.

Like others have said, a ban on guns will only remove from law abiding citizens the ability and the right to defend themselves from criminals. There are laws that prevent criminals from having firearms. They still have them. A ban will not affect a criminal because they have no respect for the laws they break.

From the information I have read, crime has increased in nations that have firearm bans.

I'm not sure what kind of liberty would be instilled by a mob of gun toters. It would most likely be a tyrrany in which those who disagreed got shot. Countries have military for protection from tyrrany in a foreign land. They have democracy in the west to ensure that tyrrany at home does not occur. A ban on guns all logistics aside would remove in the most part the oppourtunity for criminals to use them. If they did get their hands on guns then a population that couldn't retaliate with fire would be a lot safer for reasons russ outlined before.

I'm not sure who "the enemy" is that you seem so afraid of, but I can't believe that level of paranoia in anybody.

 

[Quaoar]

Since the person was Asian, he probably could not have legally purchased a gun. So, a non-American carrying an illegal weapon?

Wow, now there's a blatantly racist comment. There are plenty of Asian people in this country who are US citizens and attend college. You have no evidence that most Asians who attend college in the US are expatriates.

 

[ukmicky]

The more law abiding citizens carrying firearms WOULD make it safer, absolutely. I don't see why you disagree? How would it not be safer from maniacs going on killing sprees?

So what your saying is, in the the future if it were to happen again but instead of killing 32 the maniac only kills 15 people, OK I'll be kind he only kills 2 people because someone in the next room happens to have a gun and shots him, your saying that is better than banning the gun full stop and preventing anybody getting killed.

 

[ukmicky]

Wow, now there's a blatantly racist comment. There are plenty of Asian people in this country who are US citizens and attend college. You have no evidence that most Asians who attend college in the US are expatriates.

I don't think she quite meant it like that.

 

[scorpa]

Random speculation, perhaps if the manic wasnt born this event wouldn't have happened. Perhaps if his gun jammed he wouldn't have killed as many.

The fact of the matter is that he did, and the pro-gun lobbiest spin only works on the ones who want to believe that guns make a happier safer place for all people... Let's just forget todays events shall we...

I think what people are trying to say, is gun ban or not, the guy would have been able to get ahold of a gun had he wanted to. Why should the rest of society be helpless against that? People have the right to defend themselves, and saying "please sir I really think you should think this through, you could really hurt someone you know!" probably isn't going to help them.

That being said I would once again like to say I do not condone guns in schools, I am just making the argument for arguements sake.

It could have also saved lives if someone took in a shotgun or kalasnikov or a crossbow . I know what about a grenade, even though their quite indescriminate it may have caused less deaths :yuck: How about a nice selection of throwing knives, no forget the kinives there to dangerous.

scorpa I know your not saying that's guns should be allowed in universities but seriously the gun lobby statement is dumb,guns don't belong in a place of learning under any circumstances.

PS This forum needs spellcheck

Cross bows are to bulky to carry around with you all day :tongue:

I thought I had clearly stated that I did not think guns belonged in universities, they have no place there. I only made that point for arguements sake...you cannot deny that if someone in that school for example a security officer had had a gun it could have had the potential to save many lives. And yes it is dumb to think that people should bring guns to school, I agree with that.

On a side note...I thought a lot of American universities/high schools had metal detectors in them nowadays to help prevent this type of thing? I remember hearing that somewhere but of course I could be wrong.

 

[scorpa]

I don't think she quite meant it like that.

Agreed

Wow this thread moves fast.

 

[drankin]

So what your saying is, in the the future if it were to happen again but instead of killing 32 the maniac only kills 15 people, OK I'll be kind he only kills 2 people because someone in the next room happens to have a gun and shots him, your saying that is better than banning the gun full stop and preventing anybody getting killed.

Guns cannot be banned in the US. It is a basic right. To even discuss it as if it were a possibility is pointless. So, that being understood, to restrict the ability to have guns in places like a university, when they are everywhere else, simply puts the people there at risk. Which has been the case today.

 

[Kurdt]

I think what people are trying to say, is gun ban or not, the guy would have been able to get ahold of a gun had he wanted to. Why should the rest of society be helpless against that? People have the right to defend themselves, and saying "please sir I really think you should think this through, you could really hurt someone you know!" probably isn't going to help them.

That being said I would once again like to say I do not condone guns in schools, I am just making the argument for arguements sake.

Well that's not necessarily true. I think people are blinded to the fact that there are a lot of guns around in The US at the minute and it is relatively easy to steal one from somebody you know or obtain them illegally. I think most proponents of the ban are thinking ideally as I am to a place some time in the future when there have been amnesties and it is very much harder for a young person to get hold of a firearm. In many cases the difficulty at obtaining such an item might prevent the person from doing as they plan. Is it not a coincidence that the US has the most high school massacres in the world whereas places with stricter control have fewer? And it is not a question of allowing security guards with guns in schools in other places either.

Its like the old chinese proverb. A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. You can continue in this vein or take the first step to correcting it and solve the problems as you go, because there will be lots in a place so rife with firearms.

 

[ukmicky]

I thought I had clearly stated that I did not think guns belonged in universities.

It could have also saved lives if someone took in a shotgun or kalasnikov or a crossbow . I know what about a grenade, even though their quite indescriminate it may have caused less deaths :yuck: How about a nice selection of throwing knives, no forget the kinives there to dangerous.

Scorpa I know your not saying that guns should be allowed in universities but seriously the gun lobby statement is dumb,guns don't belong in a place of learning under any circumstances.

PS This forum needs spellcheck

You did state that and i did sort of point that out.

 

[scorpa]

You did state that and i did sort of point that out.

Just wanted to be clear

 

[russ_watters]

Did you mean "are not"? If he had a student visa, he could not legally buy a gun.

I think you may be jumping the gun on that. I was watching the news when the kids said the shooter looked asian, but I didn't take that to necessarily mean a non-citizen.

 

[ukmicky]

Side note

why ain't everyones number of posts going up, I've been on 80 for god knows how long and poor Drankin is stuck on 1.

Mind you Drankin disagrees with my views so forget about him.

 

[drankin]

Well that's not necessarily true. I think people are blinded to the fact that there are a lot of guns around in The US at the minute and it is relatively easy to steal one from somebody you know or obtain them illegally. I think most proponents of the ban are thinking ideally as I am to a place some time in the future when there have been amnesties and it is very much harder for a young person to get hold of a firearm. In many cases the difficulty at obtaining such an item might prevent the person from doing as they plan. Is it not a coincidence that the US has the most high school massacres in the world whereas places with stricter control have fewer? And it is not a question of allowing security guards with guns in schools in other places either.

Its like the old chinese proverb. A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. You can continue in this vein or take the first step to correcting it and solve the problems as you go, because there will be lots in a place so rife with firearms.

It's a futile (some would say "evil") ambition to methodically erode our freedom to bear arms. If one really does not want to live in a country that enjoys this freedom, they should consider relocating rather than trying to change something that is so basic to what this country is all about.

 

[drankin]

Side note

why ain't everyones number of posts going up, I've been on 80 for god knows how long and poor Drankin is stuck on 1

Poor me, as if my posts don't... count!

 

[Kurdt]

It's a futile (some would say "evil") ambition to methodically erode our freedom to bear arms. If one really does not want to live in a country that enjoys this freedom, they should consider relocating rather than trying to change something that is so basic to what this country is all about.

So I'm evil because I disagree with certain aspects of US law. I just don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives. Most of Europe has strict gun laws and it operates perfectly well.

 

[drankin]

So I'm evil because I disagree with certain aspects of US law. I just don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives. Most of Europe has strict gun laws and it operates perfectly well.

But that's Europe. We aren't Europe and we don't want to be European. My point is that if people really like European ways and laws then they should consider moving over there and changing their nationality. People come over here from Europe all the time for the exact same reason.

I don't think you are evil some would argue that though :).