Medical Have you ever been to a chiropractor?

[elect_eng]

Since he ‘knew’ that applied kinesiology works, and the best scientific method shows that it does not work, then, in his mind, there must be something wrong with the scientific method."

The relevance of this example to this thread doesn't make logical sense to me. Or, maybe I should say, I don't know what conclusion to draw from it. Kinesiology is a general method of diagnosis based on muscle strength. I've seen it in action on myself and it does work and it makes sense that it should work. If my physical therapist pushes on my right arm and it is weak, then pushes on my left arm and it is strong, he concludes that I have a muscle/tendon/ligament problem in the right arm area. He probes further and finds muscle spasms or some other injury. Then he treats it and I get better. It's a very simple a direct technique.

This example confuses me. I would not expect the presence of different sugars (or even artificial sugars) on my tongue to affect my muscle strength. If someone did the test on me, I would be so convinced that it would not work that the placebo effect would have the opposite affect and I would disprove the idea even if it were true; - hence, the importance of a double blind test is clear.

All this example is showing is that a very specific belief which is a small part of a larger diagnostic method was wrong. We can find misconceptions in any school of thought. Personally, I can't imagine that any collective group should have thought that test would be the "best" example to demonstrate kinesiology. It sounds like a bunch of quacks got together on this one.

Personally, I would never go to a chiropractor who classified himself as an "alternative healer". I want someone who embraces the scientific method, and is knowledgeable about all treatment options; and most importantly someone who is honest. I would expect anyone who comes to this forum to have a similar view. My chiropractor went to an Ivy league school and then to medical school. He has a very scientific approach to his profession. He directs people to other medical professionals unless he knows his methods are the right treatment for the problem.

In any profession, you need to separate the wheat from the chaff. This is not always easy, but is actually easier with chiropractors that with traditional medical doctors. It's natural to approach a chiropractor with a bit of skepticism and be on your guard, but we often go to the traditional doctor with full confidence that the person knows what he is doing and is ethical. That's a very dangerous attitude, and I won't even try to quote one of the many examples of ethical misconduct, since we have all heard the horror stories.

 

[aychamo]

I'll say it outright...I think chiropractors are quacks. The best one can hope for is a really great massage if the problem is nothing but sore muscles. At the worst, they can inflict real injury. Most of what they do has all the healing power of cracking your knuckles, which is to say it does nothing.

I do wonder if turbo has osteopathic medicine confused with something else, though. Schools of osteopathic medicine do provide a full medical training, but with more emphasis on the patient as a whole. When they graduate with a D.O., they are qualified to do a residency right along with M.D.s.

Sorry to bump an old thread.

Thank you for saying this outright. Alternative medicine is the bane of my existence. My fiance works in a spa, and a lot of her friends are massage therapists. These people have all sorts of wacky / quackery belief systems.

Massage therapists are taught all sorts of ridiculous things in school, like reflexology. The problem is that most of these massage therapists are only high school educated, so they don't know any better. They learn it in "school" and think it's a fact. They believe in stuff like acupuncture, etc. I've alienated more than a couple of her friends because they always want to debate me (I'm a M.D.) - these debates do not go well for them! It doesn't mean anything to them that the anatomical pathways these things claim to function by simply do not exist!

Chiropractors are by far the worst. I can't stand these guys. You have to appreciate that their entire practice is based around something they can't prove exists: subluxations. These guys are getting so ridiculous too. In my area, the chiropractors are all opening "wellness centers." In these "wellness centers" they all attempt to diagnose disease using ridiculous unproven tests (salivary enzyme tests, etc). Magically, they find a disease you have and say that you need supplements to cure it, which conveniently they sell for $30 a bottle. You got to love that this new practice of theirs has absolutely nothing to do with chiropractics, and 100% to do with quackery.

Not to mention that all the health food stores are now selling homeopathic remedies. These are the most expensive bottles of water on the market. Even local pharmacies are now selling them. I've questioned the pharmacist, and he replies "hey, people think they work!"

The alternative medicine scene just absolutely makes me sick. My biggest problem, besides the fact they are stealing from people and lying to them, is the delayed time-to-treatment. Every second (and penny) people waste on these completely inefficacious treatments is time that increases the patients chance of dying.

Sorry to vent... This stuff drives me absolutely crazy. I simply cannot understand how as a society we can be so dumb as to let this stuff penetrate into the mainstream. How can a chiropractor practice? How can insurance companies pay for these treatments? How can they be allowed to do non-proven tests to "diagnose disease" and then "cure" it with non-FDA approved supplements? How can people run an acupuncture clinic? How can they be allowed to practice reflexology? How can people be so misled and unable to reason that they believe in this stuff?

 

[lisab]

Sorry to bump an old thread.

Thank you for saying this outright. Alternative medicine is the bane of my existence. My fiance works in a spa, and a lot of her friends are massage therapists. These people have all sorts of wacky / quackery belief systems.

Massage therapists are taught all sorts of ridiculous things in school, like reflexology. The problem is that most of these massage therapists are only high school educated, so they don't know any better. They learn it in "school" and think it's a fact. They believe in stuff like acupuncture, etc. I've alienated more than a couple of her friends because they always want to debate me (I'm a M.D.) - these debates do not go well for them! It doesn't mean anything to them that the anatomical pathways these things claim to function by simply do not exist!

Chiropractors are by far the worst. I can't stand these guys. You have to appreciate that their entire practice is based around something they can't prove exists: subluxations. These guys are getting so ridiculous too. In my area, the chiropractors are all opening "wellness centers." In these "wellness centers" they all attempt to diagnose disease using ridiculous unproven tests (salivary enzyme tests, etc). Magically, they find a disease you have and say that you need supplements to cure it, which conveniently they sell for $30 a bottle. You got to love that this new practice of theirs has absolutely nothing to do with chiropractics, and 100% to do with quackery.

Not to mention that all the health food stores are now selling homeopathic remedies. These are the most expensive bottles of water on the market. Even local pharmacies are now selling them. I've questioned the pharmacist, and he replies "hey, people think they work!"

The alternative medicine scene just absolutely makes me sick. My biggest problem, besides the fact they are stealing from people and lying to them, is the delayed time-to-treatment. Every second (and penny) people waste on these completely inefficacious treatments is time that increases the patients chance of dying.

Sorry to vent... This stuff drives me absolutely crazy. I simply cannot understand how as a society we can be so dumb as to let this stuff penetrate into the mainstream. How can a chiropractor practice? How can insurance companies pay for these treatments? How can they be allowed to do non-proven tests to "diagnose disease" and then "cure" it with non-FDA approved supplements? How can people run an acupuncture clinic? How can they be allowed to practice reflexology? How can people be so misled and unable to reason that they believe in this stuff?

aychamo, I agree with most of what you say here, especially about massage therapist's wacky belief systems. I get massages from time to time and I have a hard time finding therapists I can deal with. If I go see a therapist and there are too many dream catchers, crystals, and fairies hanging from every doorway, my impulse is to move along and get the hell out of there. The last one made a persistent pitch to sell me pads for my shoes that will "extract toxins" from the bottoms of my feet .

But I think you should realize *why* alternative therapies thrive in the US. Don't take this personally, but most physicians are too wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, I-gotta-run-now-thanks. Sick people often don't feel they get the human touch from those the medical system. I know the causes for this are likely rooted in the need to turn a profit, and I don't want to turn this into a rant against insurance companies. But knowing why people seek these alternatives is important.

I do understand your point of view though, if I were in your profession I'm sure I'd feel the same way.

 

[nismaratwork]

I fall on the the side of potentially dangerous quackery. Even if you feel better leaving the office, it can be a result of a release of endorphins, or the use of bastardized physical therapy techniques.

Most of chiropractic practice is analagous to waving a magic stick over someone, then slipping them a couple of aspirin on the way out of the door; then people swoon as their pain fades. Was it the show with the stick, or the two little pills? Mobilizing joints that you are unwilling to do on your own can feel good, or result in the release of synovial fluid or increased blood supply; all healthy. The explanation of "subluxations" and correcting your spine is a load of horse****. You are also generally given sound advice such as "improve your posture", which anyone could give to the same positive effect. It is a show, full of noise and subtly packed with basic advice, and like all snake oils it carries the risks such as those chroot describes.